17/21st collars, silver plate or silver?

[GriffMJ]

Rob

If you go back a bit further than this modern 17th/21st Mess kit (below) and go back to 1922..... to the simple mess kit that was in vogue.... could it be that's what they came up with first for the amalgamated regiment?

As you can see the gold chain gimp is on the modern kit... I have also put in the old Imperial 17th Lancers Mess kit ..... and the kit in question (it does appear to be lightweight cloth). Also the crown on the shoulder cords.

[mac mcconnell]

Hi Griff
The 17th Blue I think is named Oxford blue.

As for the Mess Dress in Question I really cant warm to it may be it was made for an honouree member or a cadet officer hence those mottos on the lapels and again I am not a fan of those ugly flat mottos I know there are those that say they exist and others say no. I have a few of these again do we have photos of them ?

but for line officers of the 17th/21st I don't think subdued was ever an option it always been smart and proud and expensive.

IT is an interesting piece non the less and has invoked some good conversation but it would be nice to see photos of it worn none the less.

Rgs Mac

[GriffMJ]

Mac

The colour of those rolled collars is "Oxford Blue"...... So my hunch is that this is a mess kit made in the 1906-28 period. For me .... there are more things "right" about it than wrong at the moment.

[mac mcconnell]

Is there a makers name ect Griff ? I wonder if Mick Holtby at the Museum has any pictures I believe they have all the copies of the white Lancer on disc every issue has a section on the mess Officers and Sergeants that might produce a picture?.

Rgs Mac

[GriffMJ]

Mac

Sadly there were no pics of the makers label and I didnt think to make a note of anything written in the description about it (mental arse kicking being administered). I think I know somebody with the old "Rogers" tailors book.... I shall send an email and see if he has anything in it for the 17th Lancers over that period.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by mac mcconnell

I wonder if Mick Holtby at the Museum has any pictures I believe they have all the copies of the white Lancer on disc every issue has a section on the mess Officers and Sergeants that might produce a picture?.

Rgs Mac

Love the sound of that Mac...... everything on "disc"

[GriffMJ]

Mac/Rob

Just to add a bit more credibility.... here is a 14th Hussars Officers Mess Jacket from that same period. Luckily there is enough of a label to see that this one was made in London or Dublin. Note the "Army blue" rolled collars...... unfortunately the waistcoat is not with it, but I bet it was Primrose yellow (probably eaten to bits by moth).

eBay description:-

"A WW1 Lieutenants 14th. Hussars Mess Dress tunic jacket complete with bullion pips to the shoulder epaulettes and silver wire 14th. Hussars badges embroidered directly onto each silk lapel . The tailors label in the collar is torn but has the tailors location of London and Dublin clearly visible . The jacket is in good condition with the exception of a medium sized moth hole to the rear of the left arm sleeve . The lining is fully intact and there is little wear to the collar , lapels and the cuffs ."

UPDATE:- This the 14th/20th Hussars mess jacket as per the 1934 Dress regs, and quote "For the Mess Jacket an eagle surmounted by a crown in gold embroidery".

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Mac/Rob

Just to add a bit more credibility.... here is a 14th Hussars Officers Mess Jacket from that same period. Luckily there is enough of a label to see that this one was made in Dublin. Note the Army blue rolled collars...... unfortunately the waistcoat is not with it, but I bet it was yellow.

Griff

Yes, I used to have one of those, and they are similar granted, but as I've said before this 14/20H is quality silk lapels and embroidered bullion 'Hawks' no expense spared there, also the colour is applicable to the Regiment as well.

I also spoke to the QRL museum today,it appears your pattern Lancer Mess kit is unknown to them, and slightly perplexing.

The search continues........

Rob

PS: Sorry Griff, but I have little faith in E-Bay descriptions as they so often turn out to be wrong or only partially right.

[GriffMJ]

Rob

The seller of that Mess kit (17th Lancer) had been selling off a load of pukka stuff..... the quality of the material and the cut of the cloth is bang on for me.

BTW.... Correction to the date of the change in style of Mess kit...... it was 1902. New officers into the regiment wore the new style kit. This is also seen in many Yeomanry regiment mess photos (see MHS spec No 2006 The Mess Dress of The Yeomanry Cavalry 1880-1914, by David Knight and the late Bob Smith)

Observation: More modern style of kits, of this kind, have longer thinner rolled lapels.

Also:-
The jacket is fully silk lined in Oxford blue as well..... you can see in the image.

[GriffMJ]

10th Royal Hussars from the same period... I think they wore a scarlet cumberbund? (Army blue, Silver, Scarlet)

[GriffMJ]

1st Royal Dragoons from the same period, only the jacket unfortunately. The waistcoat was probably plain black with regimental buttons.

* In this kit you wore the Staff pattern peaked forage cap if you were duty Officer (or Blues & belt as alternative)..... otherwise it was the FFSC or Torin if headdress was worn, I believe.

Sherwood Foresters (same period) ----> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHERWOOD-F...item234230f8df
Brigadier (1938) ----> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VTG-HAWKES...item3396ae7fbe
ASC ---> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Ro...item2ecac446be

** I have added in some of my representative colour images of what "I think" the full kit was .... just my guess based on the each regiments colours.

[GriffMJ]

Rob

Here is a good example of why the 17th Lancers might have changed their 1902 Mess kit, for the same reason that the Sharpshooters changed theirs...... it was too impractical to keep clean. Notice how similar the kits are in the later version.

[JerryBB]

I informed the seller that they were thought to not be official issue and they replied;

These are officers private purchase, these are supplied by whoever you would go to buy your uniform from. If you are not happy with them please return them for a refund.

[mac mcconnell]

I just cant see any Mess Member wanting to change the facing colour and if they did when did they go back to white. I agree its a pain to keep clean,but it also is very smart. Ive just picked up a WOII,s Mess Jacket to the 17TH/21ST lancers post 1960 and that has a few stains but I have to say the quality not as good as my QRL mess Dress. I am still out on this one.

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

I informed the seller that they were thought to not be official issue and they replied;

These are officers private purchase, these are supplied by whoever you would go to buy your uniform from. If you are not happy with them please return them for a refund.

Hi Jerry

Thank for sharing your collar sellers response with us all.

However, his comments regarding there validity, are IMO as spurious as the collars he is selling

Nice that he's offered you a refund though, and quite right too.

Cheers
Rob