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  #1  
Old 29-05-12, 08:57 PM
button_magpie button_magpie is offline
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Default Guards Machine Gun Regiment Buttons

Hi all,

I've meant to join the BCMBF for some time now as I always end up referring to the forum (in a non member capacity which obviously has its limitations) for all those unanswered questions or when identification of a button or badge has been bugging me for ages. Maybe if I had joined sooner, I would have the answers by now and retained my hair!
If I may, I'll kick off my first thread with a bit of a poser - I've searched the site for any existing threads to no avail, so forgive me for any repetition here.

If a brass GMGR button has no backmark - does this make it a repro? I have an 18mm plain backed tunic pocket version which is in mint condition. It looks very much the part except the brass content appears a little low. I have been informed recently that all GMGR buttons should be marked (e.g. Jennens & Co. Ltd being a typical manufacturer). Furthermore, a batch of plain backs were produced for a TV programme! Could this mean I have acquired one of those?! I'm really intrigued by this and wondered if any other members could shed any light on any of the above.

By the way, I collect all sorts to the York & Lancaster (WW1 period predominently).

Thank you!
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  #2  
Old 29-05-12, 10:48 PM
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Unknownsoldier Unknownsoldier is offline
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Hi,

Welcome and a most interesting question. Tbh how does the button feel? is it smooth, does it have the feel of age (rounded edges and crimps etc.), can you post any photo's?

ATB,
Tom
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  #3  
Old 29-05-12, 11:39 PM
button_magpie button_magpie is offline
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Thanks Unknownsoldier, I have attached a couple of images. I should have uploaded these to start with.

The brass appears quite yellow compared to some I have seen and the piece is relatively lightweight altogether - not the solid little lumps you get with Gaunt, Firmin, etc. Also fairly rough and not particularly glossy. However, its not uncommon for a particular button to be manufactured by several makers as we know. I think that is what I am attempting to research and establish too; How many makers manufactured GMGR buttons? Was it one manufacturer who had sole commission? I guess that would be very difficult to determine!

Maybe other members could let me know the manufacturer of their GMGR button/s just to give an idea of the numbers.

Kind regards,
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  #4  
Old 30-05-12, 10:38 AM
Staffsyeoman Staffsyeoman is offline
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I bought a card of four of these about five years ago - same plain backs. Mine are slightly better finished on the front. I have never thought them to be originals; they did not cost much and I have had them as illustrative space fillers.

Perhaps there is an issue that if these were - shall we say - reproduced with a back stamp purporting to be but not from the original manufacturer we get into legal problems. My button collection is at a distance at the moment but I don't recall any plain back Guards-related buttons.
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  #5  
Old 05-03-19, 07:37 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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I was only talking to someone about GMGR buttons the other day, I have never actually seen any without a back stamp other than those shown in this this thread, the "TV programme" mentioned in the original post sounds interesting, I wonder what that was.
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  #6  
Old 05-03-19, 04:34 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
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For Bill A. (Moderator) I have just spent some considerable time responding to Button Magpie’s post. I then clicked on “Review Post”, prior to “Posting” it, only to be told that I was NOT logged in, (and I KNOW I was!) and POOF! Away went all my hard work!. After I tried to log in twice, I was finally in again, but nowhere can I find my proposed post! So BILL A., is there a time limit one has to complete a post in once started. And secondly, where did my draft go? And to Button Magpie, failing a reply from Bill A., I will compose a letter again possibly this evening. Regards, David J.
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  #7  
Old 05-03-19, 05:10 PM
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btns btns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artynut View Post
For Bill A. (Moderator) I have just spent some considerable time responding to Button Magpie’s post. I then clicked on “Review Post”, prior to “Posting” it, only to be told that I was NOT logged in, (and I KNOW I was!) and POOF! Away went all my hard work!. After I tried to log in twice, I was finally in again, but nowhere can I find my proposed post! So BILL A., is there a time limit one has to complete a post in once started. And secondly, where did my draft go? And to Button Magpie, failing a reply from Bill A., I will compose a letter again possibly this evening. Regards, David J.
Hi David,
There is a time-out. After being told you were logged out, you could have tried the Back button in your browser. If the text is there, copy it to notepad, or similar. Then log in using another tab of your browser. With cookies valid again, you may try posting the original message.
Once you lose that session, e.g. logging in on the same tab or closing your browser, then your draft is cleared from your browser's memory.

For messages taking a long time, either post fast to the server and edit, or write your message in a text editor and copy-past it into the message.

And: "And secondly, where did my draft go?"
Your draft was in your browser, on your machine. As you never posted it, it never reached the server.

The reason for the time-out:
While you are logged on you have been allocated memory on the server. The server does not know if you are typing text into your browser or if you have closed the browser without logging off from the forum. After a certain time of inactivity it frees its memory. If it would not do this, it would come to a standstill: out of memory, no one able to access the forum.

Last edited by btns; 05-03-19 at 05:59 PM. Reason: added location of draft
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  #8  
Old 05-03-19, 07:55 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
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Thank you BTNS for your post and explanation. This Octogenarian is quite lacking in computer knowledge but apart from your term “text editor”, I believe I got the knowledge you were imparting. ( I’ve taken a screen shot of it and will print it off for future reference) I believe my next step will be to type my message first as I tend to take a long time composing anything more than a few lines!. Then retype it into the forum post......... very quickly ! Thank you again for your response. David J.
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  #9  
Old 05-03-19, 09:14 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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You don't need to retype your text, on a Windows pc click anywhere in the original text and click 'Ctrl' and 'A' to select the whole text, next click 'Ctrl' and 'C' to copy the whole text and finally click 'Ctrl' and 'V' to paste your text where you want it here on the forum.

Rgds, Thomas
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  #10  
Old 05-03-19, 10:16 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
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Thank you also Thomas for your post re my Windows set-up. I will now try on my Apple.
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  #11  
Old 05-03-19, 10:35 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
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Post A. In reply to Button_Magpie, It would appear we are once again delving into the murky world of “genuine Issue”, “genuine repro” as in an original Manufacturer making pieces for a specific purpose or occasion (such as Fermin making the 68 button set for the Danbury Mint, “fakes” and others made for the costume trade, and of course, “fantasy pieces” or whatever a disreputable person might dream up to con the unsuspecting buyer. I am sure there many on this forum who have taken great pains to research some particular piece in their collection, only to run into a roadblock.
So here we have an interesting question concerning the G.M.G. Regt. Button. Coupled with a couple of answers based probably on experience, knowledge in that particular regiment and also the appearance of the button as pictured. It is my opinion that a definitive answer could only come from a verified expert in the field and that expert would have at hand the use of documented evidence, such as an illustration in a manufacturer’s catalogue, a sealed pattern sample or other such provenance.
For myself, I am neither an expert nor new to the collecting of buttons but I have experienced a number of incidents that will I hope, add to my knowledge which is one small part of the collecting field.
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  #12  
Old 05-03-19, 10:53 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
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Post B, continued from post A. 1) I have personally dug Civilian and Military buttons dating from the late 1700s and have been amazed at the finish of some of them after being in the ground for so long, from plain “Britannia Metal” buttons that look almost new to sometimes the very poor quality pewter buttons that threaten to flake apart unless handled very gently. 2) I have a number of post 1900s Canadian Artillery buttons that look as if they were retrieved from a dump and in some cases have a faint dimpled appearance not unlike the button referred to above. Some of these buttons are identical on the front but the back is devoid of any maker’s mark. My final remarks would be that (a) The lack of a maker’s mark, and failing documented evidence is not definitive as to say it is fake or repro. (B) The construction method of this type of button would be nigh impossible unless one had access to ALL the tools as used in the original manufacturer’s workshops.. (c) The button in question seems to be very well made, ( I love the clarity of the crown) (d) If it is a repro, why have we not seen tens or hundreds of them? Thus are the ramblings of an “Old Fart”. D.J.
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  #13  
Old 05-03-19, 11:53 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artynut View Post
Thank you also Thomas for your post re my Windows set-up. I will now try on my Apple.
Try the Apple button instead of the Ctrl button.

Rgds, Thomas
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  #14  
Old 06-03-19, 07:23 AM
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Rob Miller Rob Miller is online now
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Default Guards Machine Gun Regiment

Its a very good question, I have a number of these plain backed fixed shank buttons for various regiments, but not actually a GMGR. I have always wondered about their authenticity and purpose.

I think if genuine and period this would be an Other Ranks quality button but is it issue or private purchase?

The 1915 Priced vocabulary of clothing and necessaries says that the Other Ranks of the Guards were issued with Regimental design buttons rather than General Service pattern so there is no reason why they shouldn't exist for this late war short lived unit.

Rob
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  #15  
Old 08-05-19, 04:07 PM
button_magpie button_magpie is offline
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Default GMGR button mystery

Just to say a big thank you to the above members who have taken the time to respond to my original post 7 years ago and more recently to those who have just picked up the thread a couple of months ago!

Would you believe, I have only just noticed the replies after all this time - maybe I should pay more attention!

It's only by chance because I have just listed (on a popular auction site) what probably is a 100% genuine GMGR button made by Jennens & Co. that I have recently acquired. I googled it and my thread came up!

I still have the plain backed set of 4 rather curious GMGR buttons mentioned in my original thread, but alas, I am no nearer the definitive story behind them.

Regards,
James
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