25th Foot patch enquiry

[lettman]

Can anyone identify what this item is, please? A piece of shoulder strap? A foreign service helmet patch? It's reasonably large at approx. 40mm x 80mm. Perhaps not a uniform item at all? Thanks for any info.

[jf42]

Not that answers your question directly but it's worth considering that, since the 25th was one of the two-battalion regiments of the line, it is possible that this item might date from later than 1881 (since there was no 'marriage contract' to inhibit use of the old line number), which might open up the range of possibilities a little wider.

[grenadierguardsman]

Its an extremely nice item.
Andy

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by jf42

Not that answers your question directly but it's worth considering that, since the 25th was one of the two-battalion regiments of the line, it is possible that this item might date from later than 1881 (since there was no 'marriage contract' to inhibit use of the old line number), which might open up the range of possibilities a little wider.

Possible, but not very likely, both Nisi Dominus Frustra, the motto of the City of Edinburgh and the castle were authorized in 1832 when they were known as the 25th (the King's Own Borderers) Regiment of Foot, so it is at least from after that date.
In 1881 XXV was deleted from the cap badge when the numbering system was abolished and in 1887 they became the King's Own Scottish Borderers, so I'd be inclined to think there was little incentive to refer to previous names after that date.

Rgds, Thomas.

[JerryBB]

This cap for the Lancs fusiliers dating to post 1911 (and more likely post WWI, from the makers logo) still uses XX for the 20th on the buttons.

I have at least two uniforms from the 1930's & 1940's that still use the regimental numbers on the tailors labels

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by lettman

Can anyone identify what this item is, please? A piece of shoulder strap? A foreign service helmet patch? It's reasonably large at approx. 40mm x 80mm. Perhaps not a uniform item at all? Thanks for any info.

Being so large and made with bullion wire suggests that it is possibly a blazer or sports 'colours' badge. These latter are not often seen now because of operational tempo but for several generations were very much a part of regimental culture.

[jf42]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

Possible, but not very likely, both Nisi Dominus Frustra, the motto of the City of Edinburgh and the castle were authorized in 1832 when they were known as the 25th (the King's Own Borderers) Regiment of Foot, so it is at least from after that date.
In 1881 XXV was deleted from the cap badge when the numbering system was abolished and in 1887 they became the King's Own Scottish Borderers, so I'd be inclined to think there was little incentive to refer to previous names after that date.

Rgds, Thomas.

I would echo JB Bond's observation. On this forum we recently had a WW2 bush hat flash 'XI' to the Devonshires. A number of Regiments, and not just the first 25 of the line, held onto their pre-1881 number as part of their identity for a considerable time. Sergeants of the Black Watch displayed the number '42' on their bonnet badges well into the 1930s, I believe. The KRRC also used regularly to refer to themsleves as 'The 60th' although I am not aware this was expressed in terms of physical emblems

Given the mutation of the 25th's title over the course of a century or more
- Edinburgh Regt, Sussex Regt, K.O.Borderers Regt., York Regt (K.O.Borderers), K.O. Borderers, and finally, KOSB-
it wouldn't surprise me that, like a fair number of other regiments, they should have cherished their old number unofficialy!

However, I am aware I do but speculate....

[Peter Brydon]

Given the shape ,dimensions and construction, my best bet would be a Pagri badge, perhaps an officers.

P.B.

( Nobody has mentioned the Cheshires who retained the use of their pre 1881 number for most of their existence

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-22nd-C...8AAOSw44BYl4y9

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22-The-Che...YAAOSwEK9Txiin)

[fougasse1940]

My earlier post seems partially incorrect, both Hodges and Ted Nevill show a Drum Major's plaid brooch with XXV, and Nevill also shows a Piper's waist belt clasp with XXV.

Rgds, Thomas.

[lettman]

Many thanks to all for your input so far -- an interesting conversation, even if the mystery remains unsolved.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

This cap for the Lancs fusiliers dating to post 1911 (and more likely post WWI, from the makers logo) still uses XX for the 20th on the buttons.

I have at least two uniforms from the 1930's & 1940's that still use the regimental numbers on the tailors labels

There are pictures (Soldier Magazine?) to indicate that 1 LF wore a large XX painted on their steel helmets in the late 1950s/early 1960s.

[jf42]

Is the scarlet cloth backing relevant? Does it fairly certainly indicate an origin from before 1914? From how far back might we expect a fabric item of this to survive?

Moreover, there is something notable about the choice of red as opposed to a blue or tartan backing for an emblem associated with a Scottish regiment- given that, I assume, we accept that this patch was unlikely to have been worn on a doublet or frock.

Am I correct in thinking this emblem, showing only the castle and the motto of the city of Edinburgh, bears a resemblance to the collar badge, with the addition of the number 'XXV'?

I wonder if the red patch was simply a way of mounting the bullion badge as a memento.

I suspect a regulation metal badge or a tartan flash would have been more likely on a tropical helmet pagri, particularly after 1900, while a cloth flash would have been more likely to be worn on the khaki cover of the Foreign Service helmet. Does that sound right?

The Foreign Service Helmet /Wolseley Helmet years:

The 1st Battalion XXV/KOSB were in India, including Afghanistan from 1878-1890. After 2 years in South Africa 1900-1903, they served in Egypt 1906-11 and India 1911-1915 from where they left for Gallipoli.


The 2nd Battalion XXV had a tour in Ceylon & India 1873-79 returning via Aden

Two years in Egypt/Sudan for the 2nd Bn, 1888-90, were followed by a 13-year tour in India, including the Chitral and Tirah campaigns, finishing with two years in Burma 1903-1905.

After WWI, between 1923 and 1947 the 2nd KOSB spent 20 out of 24 years in Egypt, Hong Kong, India and fighting in Burma.

[lettman]

I'm not entirely sure what the first half of the above post is getting at -- excuse me if my reply has misinterpreted your intentions. The bullion is embroidered directly onto the red cloth -- it's nota separate item mounted onto the red cloth. Also, when I purchased it from the collection of a well-established collector of Scottish insignia, there was another example like it but in not as good condition, i.e. it's not a one-off.

[Toby Purcell]

It is indeed laid out as a design like the long standing (1891) officers collar badge of the castle of Edinburgh in silver wire with castle flags flying to the viewer's left. It does seem possible that it might be a regimental flash, as used on a FSH or Wolseley helmet puggaree, but a lot would depend upon the size ratio. One odd feature is that the castle design stipulated well formed and depicted thistles at the base and that does not feature well in this instance. I suggest that the owner would be well advised to consult with the regimental museum, preferably in writing.

[POMPEY621]

What ever its original purpose (I would agree with Peter, Pagri badge) it is an interesting addition to your collection.

Steve