East Lancs query for KLR..or anyone who can help

[Jeff Mc William]

EastLancs.jpg

This rather interesting item appeared on the "Medal Search" web site recently. It depicts what is said to be an officers glengarry badge of the East Lancs Regt circa 1881-1896, and at first sight appears to be plausible. However, further research into this reveals several anomolies ;

First, all the "Dress Regs" from 1883 to 1894 indicate that the design in the centre should be the same as that on the officers helmet plates. And, as can be seen, this was a plain silver sphinx on a black velvet backing from QVC right through to the KC plates. (despite a misleading description in the 1900 edition of Chichester & Burges-Short)

East Lancs Offs HP QVC.jpg East Lancs Offs HP KC.jpg

Second, according to the ACD records, the design of the silver sphinx above a gilt rose within a crowned silver laurel wreath was approved in Oct 1897. But since most (if not all) English regiments had already abandoned the glengarry cap by 1896, this is a bit of a puzzle.
However, it must be said that the degree of "wear and tear" on the garter and centre ornament on this badge seem to match convincingly. Also the design does not have a crown or title scroll and so may date from a little earlier than 1897, altho' I suppose it would be easy enough to remove these.
So, basically my question is ; What do the East Lancs experts on the forum think ? Is this a made-up fake or not !? Regards Jeff

[CftD]

There are no 'experts' on this Forum, only opinions - here's mine :-

A view of the reverse would help as to construction. The over-riding point is that you are absolutely right that the helmet plate device was linked to the glengarry badge. That said, these badges are heavily reproduced. It is a relatively easy badge to reproduce once you have your universal crown and garter base - add to that the collar badge of your choice with a piece of black velvet behind it and - hey presto - a badge worth (genuine) £150 - £250 if you take the Clanfield prices. Easy money ! I rather suspect (and opinion only) that yours is an attempt to create a variant, thus making it more valuable. If genuine, it is in the price range already given. Regards. David

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Attachment 44526

This rather interesting item appeared on the "Medal Search" web site recently. It depicts what is said to be an officers glengarry badge of the East Lancs Regt circa 1881-1896, and at first sight appears to be plausible. However, further research into this reveals several anomolies ;

First, all the "Dress Regs" from 1883 to 1894 indicate that the design in the centre should be the same as that on the officers helmet plates. And, as can be seen, this was a plain silver sphinx on a black velvet backing from QVC right through to the KC plates. (despite a misleading description in the 1900 edition of Chichester & Burges-Short)

Attachment 44527 Attachment 44528

Second, according to the ACD records, the design of the silver sphinx above a gilt rose within a crowned silver laurel wreath was approved in Oct 1897. But since most (if not all) English regiments had already abandoned the glengarry cap by 1896, this is a bit of a puzzle.
However, it must be said that the degree of "wear and tear" on the garter and centre ornament on this badge seem to match convincingly. Also the design does not have a crown or title scroll and so may date from a little earlier than 1897, altho' I suppose it would be easy enough to remove these.
So, basically my question is ; What do the East Lancs experts on the forum think ? Is this a made-up fake or not !? Regards Jeff

Hi Jeff
yes the officers glengarry is made up the centre is an o/r cap badge cut to fit it.

peter

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi David. Thanks for your reply. Your opinions are always welcome and worth reading. I know what you mean re "experts" tho' there seem to be plenty of "badge gurus" on the forum these days.

Peter. Yes, I think you are correct. I have just electronically "trimmed" an ORs East Lancs cap badge (see below) and the overall shape looks remarkably like the one on the "Medal Search" badge. So, I think this has finally convinced me that it is a dud. Regards and thanks to you both. Jeff

E.Lancs clipped.jpg

[KLR]

Jeff, I apologise for not having responded to this earlier, I had not seen this post as I have been a tad preoccupied over the last couple of months. Far be it for me to suggest that I am an expert in E Lancs badges but I have done some research on badge records.
On thing that is difficult to trace however are officers Patterns - there are a few in some of our well known museums but I've only looked up KLR ones.
The 1897 ACD reference you mention is the "cap badge" (specified for wear on the Field Service Cap [=side cap] and Foreign Service Helmet) and it should, of course, have the title scroll below.
I cannot go further than that and commend the earlier opinions.
J

PS. yes, I agree with you about the sometimes garbled descriptions in C & B-S !

[Jeff Mc William]

Julian. Thank you for your post. I think that just about puts the lid on it. I revisited the site again today on www.medalsearch.co.uk That particular badge appears to have gone now but I shall leave it up to forum members to decide what they think of the present stock. Caveat emptor I guess. Regards Jeff