Military button pick up at flea market

[Tonomachi]

I found this military button at the flea market in California for 5 dollars. It was made in Paris, France, but I think it might be British. Could use identification and period. Many thanks in advance for your help.

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[Cribyn]

Hello

The French backmark would obviously suggest that this is probably not a British button but I dare say some collector will be able to say that buttons for British units were made in France at some time or other! Can't say that I remember seeing any though.

The bugle would suggest Light Infantry or Rifles but, sticking my neck out a little and I may be totally wrong here, your button just does not have a British look to it.

Regards
Roger.

[btns]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Hello
... I dare say some collector will be able to say that buttons for British units were made in France at some time or other! ...
Regards
Roger.

Well, actually ...
The French made the best British Royal Navy and H.E.I.C. buttons ever and the British supplied the French militias of the 1870/1871 war with buttons. All French button factories were in Paris, which was besieged by the German army. The cloth industry was in Lyon.

Both suppliers followed common practice: the French buttons have British quality marks and the English buttons have initials only.

Now for the bugle button. It may have been made for the South American market. The mark R & C is on high quality buttons, but I do not know who used it.

[Tonomachi]

Many thanks for this information.

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by btns

Well, actually ...
The French made the best British Royal Navy and H.E.I.C. buttons ever and the British supplied the French militias of the 1870/1871 war with buttons. All French button factories were in Paris, which was besieged by the German army. The cloth industry was in Lyon.

Both suppliers followed common practice: the French buttons have British quality marks and the English buttons have initials only.

Now for the bugle button. It may have been made for the South American market. The mark R & C is on high quality buttons, but I do not know who used it.

Fascinating information. In the circumstances you mention I can understand the French need to purchase buttons from Britain but for the life of me I can't quite understand why the Royal Navy would want or need to buy buttons from French manufacturers!

I am assuming this was some time ago (but perhaps not) and I would have thought that the British button industry would have been up in arms at the thought of lucrative Government contracts going to the French!

As I said earlier I have never seen an old British military button with a French backmark, you learn something new every day!

Regards
Roger

[btns]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Fascinating information. ... I can't quite understand why the Royal Navy would want or need to buy buttons from French manufacturers!

==> Officer's clothing in the 19th century were private purchase.

Originally Posted by Cribyn

I am assuming this was some time ago (but perhaps not) ...

==> period mid 1840s until the 1850s.

Originally Posted by Cribyn

... and I would have thought that the British button industry would have been up in arms at the thought of lucrative Government contracts going to the French!

==> T.W. & W. is Trelon, Weldon & Weil.
==> C. & J. Weldon, 130, Cheapside, London

I have no hard proof but I there may be a family relation between these two companies. The Weldons are linked to Hammond Turners & Sons in Birmingham. The latter supplied the 1870/1871 militia buttons.

Proof came from the sale of the Gaunt collection a couple of years ago. They had plenty of badly damaged buttons (fire or flooding) from the 1870s. They had also struck 1848-1852 designs, which fits in with French literature acknowledging that these obsolete designs were used in the 1870s.

It has been said before: the museum selling off the Gaunt collection destroyed 200 years of British industrial history.

Originally Posted by Cribyn

...As I said earlier I have never seen an old British military button with a French backmark, you learn something new every day!

==> The French buttons are indistinguishable from English made buttons. They are Extra Treble etc. The proof is, that these buttons were in the Coinderoux stock, owner of the T.W. & W. brand, when it closed down in 2007.
From this hoard only US military museums, assisted by the US embassy, salvaged US dies made by the French.

Old companies never go away completely. The Coinderoux brand has been purchased by another company.
http://www.fibule.123.fr/index.php?o...id=59&Itemid=2