British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Books by Forum Members


Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > General Topics.

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 23-09-17, 11:26 AM
Drew's Avatar
Drew Drew is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Kyoto
Posts: 217
Default Armament Staff Sergeant Insignia

Hello everyone,

I have a query about the ranks of 'Staff Serjeant' and 'Armament Staff Serjeant' in the First World War. Was there any difference in the rank badges worn or are they identical? Would the Armament Staff Serjeant have worn any other badges in addition to the crown and chevrons?

Many thanks in advance for any help you may be able to provide.

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 23-09-17, 04:07 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 5,043
Default

Chris,

Simple answer is yes, they were different and yes the ASS wore an additional badge, the crossed hammer and pincers Armourers trade badge between the chevrons and the crown on the right upper arm.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 23-09-17, 05:00 PM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,365
Default

I agree with Simon's comment regarding the badges but think you will find that the appointment was officially 'Staff Armourer Sergeant'.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 23-09-17, 11:16 PM
Drew's Avatar
Drew Drew is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Kyoto
Posts: 217
Default

Thank you both very much indeed. That is very helpful. I had tried a bit of a google search but had not come up with much. Using the term 'Staff Armourer Sergeant' I was able to straight away see many examples of what you mean.

Many thanks,

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24-09-17, 03:59 AM
fairlie63's Avatar
fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Claremont, Tasmania
Posts: 995
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
I agree with Simon's comment regarding the badges but think you will find that the appointment was officially 'Staff Armourer Sergeant'.
Interesting to note however that King's Regulations and Orders for the Army, 1908, refers only to these appointments as Armourer Staff Sergeant and Armament Staff Sergeant, as does Clothing Regulations 1914. The latter does not show any badge other than crown and three chevrons for both appointments, but does state that all WOs, NCOs and privates employed as armourers wore hammer and pincers.

What did the Armament prefix entail - artillery as opposed to small arms?

Keith
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24-09-17, 08:55 AM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairlie63 View Post
Interesting to note however that King's Regulations and Orders for the Army, 1908, refers only to these appointments as Armourer Staff Sergeant and Armament Staff Sergeant, as does Clothing Regulations 1914. The latter does not show any badge other than crown and three chevrons for both appointments, but does state that all WOs, NCOs and privates employed as armourers wore hammer and pincers.

What did the Armament prefix entail - artillery as opposed to small arms?

Keith
The titles of the appointments had changed by 1908, Keith. The Armament Staff Sergeants had I think moved to the Army Ordnance Corps by that date, they had previously been Royal Artillery (and worn both gun and crossed hammer and pincers if I recall correctly), before which they had been in a corps of their own, before which originating in the Artillery! It's a convoluted pedigree that you can check online. The British Army always had a battle of ideas as to whether specialists should be an integral part of the units they support or part of a specialised corps and then attached to those they support. There are arguments in favour of both schools of thought but over time the latter has gained preference and held sway.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24-09-17, 09:02 AM
grey_green_acorn's Avatar
grey_green_acorn grey_green_acorn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 3,452
Default

Great photographic evidence here from member Armourer74

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...p?albumid=1801

With badge examples here

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...p?albumid=2571

Tim
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm"
"Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 24-09-17, 01:28 PM
Drew's Avatar
Drew Drew is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Kyoto
Posts: 217
Default

Thanks very much indeed to everyone for their comments and links. I am finding it all extremely fascinating.

Regards,

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 24-09-17, 04:50 PM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Thanks very much indeed to everyone for their comments and links. I am finding it all extremely fascinating.

Regards,

Chris
As you may know they ended up in the Corps of Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers when it was formed in 1941. My very good friend, Peter Winfield, who hails from Australia (and is a member here), has been researching the history of British Army and Commonwealth Forces armourers for some years now, gathering much detail, and I am hoping that he will publish a book one day. He has the best collection of multifarious details that I know of.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 24-09-17, 06:00 PM
54Bty's Avatar
54Bty 54Bty is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London, England
Posts: 5,322
Default

During my time (1967-2009), REME Armourers were responsible for Small Arms and Gun Fitters (Armament Artificers) looked after Guns.

Marc
__________________
I am still looking for the Army Formation sleeve badges from the Sultanate of Oman.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 25-09-17, 02:47 PM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54Bty View Post
During my time (1967-2009), REME Armourers were responsible for Small Arms and Gun Fitters (Armament Artificers) looked after Guns.

Marc
Yes, Marc, it is interesting. At first the RA had just 'armourers' who because of the simple design of muzzle loading cannon could deal with both small arms and field pieces (the latter along with wheelwrights). It seems to have been the introduction of the Armstrong gun that changed things, whereby in an early example of a PFI the company was given the contract to train gun fitters for first line repair, as well as receive guns in their factory for second line repair. It created a monopoly that at the time caused quite a scandal. From that shaky start the concept of the artificer gun fitter grew and, like the armourers, for a short period they had a corps of their own.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 26-09-17, 10:57 PM
Drew's Avatar
Drew Drew is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Kyoto
Posts: 217
Default

Thanks very much again. Very interesting indeed.

Chris
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
armament staff serjeant, insignia, rank badges

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:27 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.