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#61
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"Replica voided crown" para badge
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#62
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I have not yet seen a white metal example of the Gaunt pattern with a voided crown for wear by other ranks, I have also not seen an officers badge by Gaunt in white metal to the Parachute Regiment of typical officers construction. I am happy to be proved wrong but that is my understanding based on my collection and what I have read and seen from other collections. I also believe that other ranks badges were issued and that officers purchased their own. Having said that what was actually worn in WW2 may have had some variation according to clothing regulations. It is interesting that Army Clothing Instruction 757 of 1943 - Clothing Parachute Regiment Badges and Buttons states that officers cap badges are in silver and other ranks cap badges are in white metal. It also states that officers should wear other ranks badges in white metal for the duration of the war as a measure of economy. The following document was posted on this forum by member Graham Stewart a number of years ago: |
#63
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In the meantime, other makers proposed their voided crown pattern (both in silver and WM) and we have evidence that these were worn by NCOs: I provided a photo of Sgt Lewis taken in Tunisia on Oct 1943. It looks like his voided badge is the Ludlow pattern.Sgt Lewis Oct 1943 Close-up.jpg The Firmin pattern presents similarities with the original one on the sealed card and could have been ordnance issued in a simplified version (no fretted legs, as Marinus puts it, or carving around the lion’s tail) https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...1&d=1601743863. I think the Ludlow pattern in WM was just available for private purchase (the solid back made it too costly for ordnance issue). That leaves the last voided pattern (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...5&d=1602079130 thanks Jerry!) the best candidate for issuance to OR. This badge is not rare which I believe indicates it was at some point massively distributed by the Army Clothing Dpt. When was it issued? Impossible to tell but given the shortage of badge it could very well not have been issued before the end of 1943. Once again, my theory is that a modified pattern might have been accepted by the Army (ie with a solid crown) to expedite the production of badges. For this reason, the voided crown badges were probably issued first. Quote:
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#64
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As I have said before it is my opinion that the sealed pattern badge is a very close if not identical match to a Gaunt pattern badge. I have no idea why Gaunt didn't produce a voided crown other ranks badge but they were not alone in this and it may be a matter of ease and speed of production. What I do know is that they produced a hallmarked badge in 1943 and can only speculate as to when they produced a corresponding other ranks badge in white metal, but it is difficult to understand why a large company like Gaunt would be late to the game in producing the new other ranks badge for ordnance issue having produced the officers version. I genuinely cannot make out a Ludlow pattern or any other pattern badge from the photograph of Sgt. Lewis. It is impossible to say for certain which badge was the earliest issued and to speculate too much makes me uncomfortable, my leaning is towards the non voided badges in white metal but obviously cannot rule out your suggestion. Perhaps it should be the topic of another thread as we have deviated from the original post and while it is good to have discussion I think we had better agree to disagree on which was the earliest for now. Cheers, Jack |
#65
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Sealed pattern badge in Oliver Lock's book is made by Gaunt?
Jack,
I think you are right "that the sealed pattern badge is a very close if not identical match to a Gaunt pattern badge". Marinus GAUNT-PARA-1.jpg Last edited by marinus; 09-10-20 at 01:17 PM. Reason: changed thing to think |
#66
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continuing the deviation,
" There may have been unmarked silver and sterling marked badges but I have not seen one yet. These officers badges have no obverse detail visible on the reverse and were of superior construction " I have resisted the temptation for ages now to dunk it in Silverdip and remove the severe tarnish. a bit like how some WW1 British War Medals end up, black as the "Ace of Spades ".
__________________
" the art of collecting badges, darker'n a black steer's tookus on a moonless prairie night " |
#67
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Jack. |
#68
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Jack |
#69
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"controversial" non-voided crown para regiment badge
Good evening gents,
Today this badge fell on my doormat and I like to share a few pictures with you. I think it's a nice badge but I'm still not sure if the pattern is genuine. Will we ever learn? Marinus PARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-1.jpgPARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-2.jpg PARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-3.jpgPARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-4.jpgPARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-5.jpg PARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-6.jpgPARA-NON-VOIDED-WEIRD-LINES-7.jpg |
#70
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Marinus, I believe your badge is original.
As for the pattern, we'll call it the 'Long Rear Leg' type, one of the 5 non voided types that can be found. See below a few pics for comparison with my badge (same die flaws). We could have used Siverwash's badge as well. Comp Marinus 1.jpg Comp Marinus 2.jpg Comp Marinus 3.jpg Well done! |
#71
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'Long Rear Leg' type pattern parachute regiment badge
Thank you tcrown for combining the images for comparison.
I like "Long Rear Leg" as name for the type. May I ask for the names for the other 4 non-voided types please? Marinus Quote:
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#72
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- Gaunt with Die Flaws - Gaunt without Die Flaws - Long Lion Type - Height-like Tail Type I propose a separate discussion on the Gaunt badge type. |
#73
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parachute regiment non-voided types
Thank you very much indeed, tcrown.
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#74
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Now one with the stereotypical 15mm fake Gaunt.London mark.
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#75
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Points to be made? Made before?
I have been going through this thread with interest as it is exactly what collectors need to discern, or at least to be safe, in acquiring original examples as well as to catalogue suspected reproductions.
I have tried my best to scour British archives for documents on British badge production during WWII in order to track down some mysterious Canadian private purchase badges. I know you guys have probably factored all this in but you also need to be very careful regarding the process of badge manufacture. In studying the Canadian-made brass Canadian Parachute Corps cap badges it is evident that despite a badge only existing for a very short time, multiple dies existed. Dies were owned and controlled by the government. However, this did not prevent the various companies contracted from making their own under different circumstances. Sometimes, if a die was damaged, they would be asked by the government to make a new one. Considering the huge difference in numbers required between an Airborne School / Battalion and a multi-Battalion Regiment over a much longer period with the huge plethora of government contracted badge makers ( as well as the possibility of private manufacturers ) the numbers of die variants of the British Parachute Regiment badge can be daunting to figure out. One question I always had, for example, regarding suspected reproduction badges we know originated as private purchases, is why would someone go to all the trouble and expense to create a completely new die when one could simply create a die from an original? Or, at that time, simply get the company to make a new batch from the original dies. A case in point is the 1st Canadian Armd Carrier Regt. and its distinct wartime die and a totally new die to produce the repro. This has always had me wonder if there were not more than one die made during the war and the other "repro" badges simply did not get to the unit which was, like the Parachute Battalion, quickly demobbed and sent home. I am wondering if this possible scenario might also apply to certain British badges. I am not saying this IS what happened, just have not been able to disprove the possibility. My point is, there may have been variants in the pipeline at the end of the war that did not make it to the unit. Also, firms that took it upon themselves to make their own private purchase badges may have sold dies off at the end of the war or made OR's badges using dies they may have originally used for officers' badges. Anyway just a thought. |
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