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  #16  
Old 09-02-18, 07:33 PM
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
I agree with Alex, the quality of the ship is shocking. I wouldn't want it in my collection.
Andy
I wouldn’t say the quality of the ship is shocking. Not as well defined but still not bad IMO.

I can clearly see gun ports, individual planks on the hull, an anchor, rigging, a crows nest. I agree the sails don’t appear the smoothest and may lack a little finess but I’ve seen far lower quality WW1 badges that were genuine.

In fact I’d say the voiding on the badge in the opening post is superior. Nice void between the flag and mast on the foremast. Clear voiding between the flag on the main mast and the mizzen mast. Neither void is present on the Gaunt badge.

Here it is next to a Gaunt badge ship. Simon hope you don’t mind me using your picture to demonstrate.

Regards,

Luke
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 06D9D6B8-3390-44F6-ABD6-3A19F6F7B1D8.jpeg (23.0 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpeg 329E9494-F433-490E-845C-CA640EDF0440.jpeg (42.2 KB, 32 views)
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  #17  
Old 09-02-18, 08:04 PM
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Simon

I think your badge, mine and the one currently on Ebay were all made from the same die. I have seen a few others in the past but not in large numbers. I would say it is definitely not a Gaunt badge as there are so many major differences and my own theory, although I have nothing to base this on for definite is that it could be a Lambourne made badge. The quality is not brilliant and I believe this has been mentioned before about Lambourne badges (if you look at the right hand side of the bottom scroll on my badge you will see that it appears to have been mis-struck. The main difference I can see between your badge and mine (plus the one on ebay) is that yours is more of a yellow brass whereas mine is more of a coppery coloured brass. I am not 100% convinced that it is genuine but I feel for all it's faults it has more going for it than it has against it. I bought it knowing all these things with the intention of keeping it and I have no intention of getting rid of it. It will always have a question mark over it but I can live with that, no definite proof, just a gut feeling.

Paddy
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  #18  
Old 09-02-18, 08:05 PM
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
I wouldnít say the quality of the ship is shocking. Not as well defined but still not bad IMO.

I can clearly see gun ports, individual planks on the hull, an anchor, rigging, a crows nest. I agree the sails donít appear the smoothest and may lack a little finess but Iíve seen far lower quality WW1 badges that were genuine.

In fact Iíd say the voiding on the badge in the opening post is superior. Nice void between the flag and mast on the foremast. Clear voiding between the flag on the main mast and the mizzen mast. Neither void is present on the Gaunt badge.

Here it is next to a Gaunt badge ship. Simon hope you donít mind me using your picture to demonstrate.

Regards,

Luke
Left hand ship is very good, right no way near.
Andy
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  #19  
Old 09-02-18, 08:05 PM
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I took the photographs this morning in my front room with what little sunlight there was. The pictures are not particularly clear and I will retake them tomorrow morning. There is a surprising amount of detail on the ship.
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  #20  
Old 09-02-18, 08:12 PM
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Thanks Paddy, I value your expertise on the badges worn by the Royal Naval division. My opinion is that the badge is authentic because of the provenance. As I have stated this badge came from a house clearance along with other items Here they are.

One RND shoulder title, two pairs of Drake Shoulder titles and three medals.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Drake 009.jpg (65.9 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg Drake 006.jpg (86.1 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg RND 005.jpg (118.4 KB, 22 views)
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  #21  
Old 09-02-18, 08:17 PM
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The original owner was clearly in the Drake battalion and served at Ostend, Gallipoli and in France. It is conceivable that he lost his original cap badge and later bought a fake to replace it. But, as he never mounted his medals for wear I doubt that he would have bothered getting a replacement cap badge.

I feel really honoured to be the custodian of this little group that has been together for nearly 100 years.
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File Type: jpg RND 003.jpg (102.6 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg Drake 011.jpg (118.4 KB, 26 views)
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  #22  
Old 09-02-18, 08:18 PM
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Simon

A very nice little haul. No one can ever be 100% certain that all of these items were together approx. 100 years ago as sadly the original owner will no longer be with us but I would say there is a very good chance that they were and would have few qualms about putting them all together in a display frame.

Paddy
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  #23  
Old 09-02-18, 08:40 PM
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Wood View Post
The original owner was clearly in the Drake battalion and served at Ostend, Gallipoli and in France. It is conceivable that he lost his original cap badge and later bought a fake to replace it. But, as he never mounted his medals for wear I doubt that he would have bothered getting a replacement cap badge.

I feel really honoured to be the custodian of this little group that has been together for nearly 100 years.
Very nice indeed Simon.

There’s another one here... http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-wor...6ispremium%3d1 ship looks nice and detailed to me.
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  #24  
Old 09-02-18, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
Simon

A very nice little haul. No one can ever be 100% certain that all of these items were together approx. 100 years ago as sadly the original owner will no longer be with us but I would say there is a very good chance that they were and would have few qualms about putting them all together in a display frame.

Paddy
Paddy,

agreed that we can never be 100% certain but as they came from the family it is certainly very likely. Unfortunately they had no photograph of Henry Baker in his uniform, as I would have liked to have framed it with the medals and badges.

Simon.
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  #25  
Old 09-02-18, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Very nice indeed Simon.

Thereís another one here... ship looks nice and detailed to me.
Luke,

thank you for posting the link. I have taken a couple of photographs using the table lamp on my desk. Whilst they are not brilliant they clearly show a lot of detail on the ship.

Simon.

Two more taken this morning.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ship 001.jpg (80.9 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg ship 002.jpg (66.5 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Drake etc 008.jpg (77.2 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg Drake etc 002.jpg (86.4 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by High Wood; 10-02-18 at 11:26 AM.
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  #26  
Old 09-02-18, 08:59 PM
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
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Simon,

Thanks for posting. As you and Paddy say we can never be 100% sure but Iíd say in 2018 such a collection from a house clearance with named medals etc is about as good as weíre going to get until a portrait photo of someone proudly wearing this badge turns up.

Iím a believer in this badge!

Cheers,

Luke
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  #27  
Old 10-02-18, 04:36 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Hi Simon
My first comments were aimed at expressing my opinion without judging.
After seeing your provenance I think we should document these badges as known 'non-Gaunt' variations. Thanks for sharing all the info etc as even though there might always be a small '?', if I'd acquired it in the same manner, I'd be happy with it too!
Most of the fakes I've seen have a voided crown, so this is more unusual.
Great group to have, well done!!
Cheers,
Alex
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  #28  
Old 10-02-18, 08:19 AM
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Sonofacqms Sonofacqms is offline
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Default Non Gaunt RND badges

I am certain that there was another manufacturer of RND badges which were not of quite the same quality as the Gaunt versions, quite who would need more research.

I have somwhere a Hood badge I think with flat loops, one of which was broken off which has no Gaunt plaque.

With the provenance of this badge which came with titles and medals I think it's got to be original.

A nice find . . !

Rob
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  #29  
Old 10-02-18, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Rice View Post
Hi Simon
My first comments were aimed at expressing my opinion without judging.
After seeing your provenance I think we should document these badges as known 'non-Gaunt' variations. Thanks for sharing all the info etc as even though there might always be a small '?', if I'd acquired it in the same manner, I'd be happy with it too!
Most of the fakes I've seen have a voided crown, so this is more unusual.
Great group to have, well done!!
Cheers,
Alex
Alex,

I have no problem with any of your comments or with you expressing your opinion. I deliberately set the thread to unfold the way that it did in order to encourage debate.

I think that there is a tendency in the badge collection fraternity to be 'over protective' in applying strict criteria as to what constitutes an original badge and sometimes the good is discarded along with the bad. I understand why this happens when there are dealers who knowingly sell fakes and who are willing to commission forgeries.

It is certainly wise to exercise caution and apply criteria when parting with money for rare badges, but we would do well to bear in mind that not everyone is out to deceive.

I would have had some doubts about this badge if it had not come from the family with the other items, particularly after looking at the various threads on the forum regarding Drake battalion badges.

More importantly, I hope that this thread will help to save examples of this particular Drake variant from destruction as fakes.

Good hunting.

Simon
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