17/21st collars, silver plate or silver?

[JerryBB]

Arrived today and very nice, sharply struck with signs of a miss strike on the or glory scroll on the reverse, with silver lugs. Is it possible to tell as they are unmarked if they are plated or sterling silver? Also any help on a date range would be appreciated that is assuming they are original as I think.

[GriffMJ]

Jerry

I am always skeptical of these..... they are copied and you can see them on eBay often. There "is" a white metal set that i would be comfortable with.

My Gm set are found on early Cold War Officers mess dress..... i have not seen Wm {edit} on any other mess {edit} uniform yet.

[JerryBB]

Thanks Griff for the very prompt reply. Oh well a case of you win some you lose some with these then. They were cheap enough (often a red flag) and nicely done so I'll keep them.

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Jerry

I am always skeptical of these..... they are copied and you can see them on eBay often. There "is" a white metal set that i would be comfortable with.

My Gm set are found on early Cold War Officers mess dress..... i have not seen Wm on any uniform yet.

Griff

I am sceptical about these 'Flat' Pattern collar mottoes both in GM & WM, full stop, and the matter of their validity has come up on more than one occasion on this forum.
As I've said in the past they are IMO a spurious pattern dreamt up by 'Marsh' in the 70's I think, and appeared in his Catalogue (Cat. no's to follow). They do not appear, to the best of my knowledge, in any recognised reference military or civilian.

It is interesting that you have an Officers Mess Dress with a pair on, but that with respect really does not make them bona fide, as anyone could have put them on there. I'm not entirely convinced that officers wore collars on their mess dress and I will look into it, but if they did I would have thought they would have been Silver.
I'll make some enquiries and get back to you on this.

Just made a call to QRL HHQ. a reliable source there stated that 17/21L Officers did not wear Mottoes on their Mess Jacket Lapels of any description. That doesn't mean they never did of course they may have done before this source joined. So Griff have you any photograph/documentary evidence to verify your claim that they did?

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

None, other than the mess kit shown. Wm on SD .....and collars that I would collect (see attached)

Also.... verdigris is a good sign of age.

The "Flat" cap Motto is thought to be used it the National service era..... but, again, until photographic proof appears then its speculative.

BTW..... the SILVER variety are repro'd and one of the sellers of these is the relative of the "GB" hallmark. Simple things to copy I suppose.

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Rob

None, other than the mess kit shown. Wm on SD .....and collars that I would collect (see attached)

Also.... verdigris is a good sign of age.

The "Flat" cap Motto is thought to be used it the National service era..... but, again, until photographic proof appears then its speculative.

BTW..... the SILVER variety are repro'd and one of the sellers of these is the relative of the "GB" hallmark. Simple things to copy I suppose.

Hello Griff

I am sorry to tell you but IMO these wm collars are spurious too. How many do you want?

To the best of my knowledge wm collars were not worn on Officers SD Jackets, only bronze for 17L and gilt for 17/21L I think (but I will look into that further), but happy to be corrected. None of which are documented/recorded to be of this flat pattern.

As you are aware I do not collect Officers kit but due to the fact that these 'Flat' collars have been turning up for years described as one thing or another, I have questioned their validity.

I spoke to & forwarded images to the late David Linaker in 2009 on this subject as just like Jerry I though I had the real thing.
David replied and I quote: 'Bad news I fear. I believe the 17L collar badges you have are Mrs Marsh No.1163. They are flat and bogus'

I think you'll find if you were to contact Gordon Dine he would express the same sentiments.

As for Verdigris being an indication of age, this is a chemical reaction to Copper & Brass on exposure to certain atmospheres, it can appear in a very short time subject to conditions, so no IMO, it is not an indication of substantial age.

Incidentally, were both of these items of uniform obtained from the same source?

Regards

Rob

PS are you 100% sure that mess kit is 17/21L? only the more I look at it etc. shouldn't there be some braid at cuff level?

[JerryBB]

Thanks for the input Rob.

at £20 they did come into the too good to be true category, but even as copies, whether silver plated or silver they will look good on a leather jacket when I am out on the bike and for which in a bike shop some crappy biker versions would probably cost more and would not look as good.

Jerry B.

Originally Posted by Robthereiver

Hello Griff

I am sorry to tell you but IMO these wm collars are spurious too. How many do you want?

To the best of my knowledge wm collars were not worn on Officers SD Jackets, only bronze for 17L and gilt for 17/21L I think (but I will look into that further), but happy to be corrected. None of which are documented/recorded to be of this flat pattern.

As you are aware I do not collect Officers kit but due to the fact that these 'Flat' collars have been turning up for years described as one thing or another, I have questioned their validity.

I spoke to & forwarded images to the late David Linaker in 2009 on this subject as just like Jerry I though I had the real thing.
David replied and I quote: 'Bad news I fear. I believe the 17L collar badges you have are Mrs Marsh No.1163. They are flat and bogus'

I think you'll find if you were to contact Gordon Dine he would express the same sentiments.

As for Verdigris being an indication of age, this is a chemical reaction to Copper, Brass on exposure to certain atmospheres, it can appear in a very short time subject to conditions, so no IMO, it is not an indication of substantial age.

Incidentally, were both of these items of uniform obtained from the same source?

Regards

Rob

PS are you 100% sure that mess kit is 17/21L? only the more I look at it etc. shouldn't there be some braid at cuff level?

[Robthereiver]

Jerry

Fair play for your honesty. Put them on and crack on mate.

Rob

[Lancer 17]

G'day Rob and Griff

Thanks for your imput on this I also have both Wm and brass issues of this one but have no info if they are good or not. So thanks for filling me in.

In the past i have tried looking for photos of officers in mess dress, however I dont have any in my old White Lancer and the Vedetts so cant add to the discussion.

I have however printed this thread out and will keep in my reference collection.

Regards

Phil.

[GriffMJ]

Rob

The mess kit could be earlier.... the subdued post imperial type?

Phil

Check your email

[mac mcconnell]

That Mess kits a new one on me I never seen one like that Who made it Griff? and why would it be subdued?

It looks the same cut as the Sgts Mess, but 17th/21st always have white facing colour.

I would like to see some reference photos as we can never say never I shall start digging.

I am interested in a historical way as collecting 17th/21st this sort of thing is of interest.

You have helped me out on so many things I am most greatful

Kind Regards Mac

[GriffMJ]

Mac

Post imperial..... Regiments became a bit more frugal.... lets say So instead of all the expense of all that elaborate lace.... the kit became very simple.

Example :-

PAOLYC Officer pre 1906 then LYPAO Officer post 1906


The trend for the "Cavalry Cut" (old style) came back in the 60s I think. Almost everyone is wearing a simplified version today..... even the Yorkie Wagoneers (Really Large Corps) I note.

Anyway ..... thats how I see the Mess kit I have shown in the above post..... a post 1906 Mess kit.

[GriffMJ]

More images of that Mess kit for you.... The cuffs are Army blue and not the blue that is seen on the rolled collar. The shoulder cords are gold chain gimp. Those buttons look original to the kit. The riding britches were with the mess kit... not part of it obviously.

[Robthereiver]

[QUOTE=GriffMJ;280620]Rob

The mess kit could be earlier.... the subdued post imperial type?

Griff

I've looked at references I have, and on-line, and asked those that I know have served with the Regiment, but to date I can find no evidence of such a Mess Kit being worn.

Mac, has actually raised one of the most obvious points.... its colour, Blue does not relate to the 17L or 17/21L.

I have seen an Officers mess dress jacket similar to yours that had deep blue silk lapels with embroidered 'Hawks' on, which was attributed to 14/20H, dated late 1920's I think.

All I can say is, if this Mess Kit of yours is genuine and not a fantasy item, made up for a film production, theatre or the like, then it appears to be a scarce item.

However, I think you still need to substantiate its validity either by photographic or documentary means, just for your own peace of mind, I would have thought

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

I am open to it being wrong.... that's not a problem.

The thing that caught my eye was the fact that the buttons are not a later addition .... they have been tailored in..... and proper gold chain gimp.

Film prop.... very well could be.....a bit elaborate I thought... but a bit more investigation is needed I think

What is the blue in 17th/21st Lancer Stable belt called? Its not the normal Army blue is it? My old stable belt has army blue in it and its much darker than whats seen below...