FAKE ALERT! Northants Yeomanry

[Mike]

Re-reading this thread I can see the problem here (for me). I'm going back to being just the forum Janitor and pick up my mop and swat some Chinese spammers for amusement instead.

Apologies to one and all if there is now a problem here.

Won't comment on copies vs original anymore as its not my position to do so. (but it's just so damned interesting )

[Viletone]

Lew has one on page 3 of the Clanfield Militaria star badges. The pic is small though.

[badjez]

As promised, photos of what I believe to be the real McKoy. Sorry about the quality but my digital camera is on its last legs.

The badge came on this beret. It is actually black (NY were RAC then, serving as a Sqn of the Inns of Court Regt) and stamped with the W.O. Pheon, dated 1950. Incidentally this is an OR's beret, not private purchase.

The badge has never been off the beret (and I'm not going to do it now). It has two West-East WM lugs. The badge itself is two pieces, rivetted together with rivets (at 2 & 10 o'clock) similar to those on the 23rd Hussars shown on this thread. The gold dead gilt scroll actually sits on a circular WM inner base with its rim overlapping the inner base. The letter 'P' is stamped into the reverse. I cannot see a maker's name.

Hope this helps. Stephen.

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

I cannot talk for any era except anodised but if you are looking for fakes in pre-anodised era badges you need to be able to identify the sliders and lugs used by the later badges.

Saying that, the lugs used on Andy's badge are not like those found on modern Gaunt items which maybe a good thing in this case.

But, Andy, you need to state if the lugs are made of round (sides and top round, inside flat) or semi-round (sides round, top and insides flat) wire.

Squashed sides excepted and compared to those found on anodised badges; if round I would hazard a guess to be London Badge and Button or late Firmin.

If semi-round to be Smith and Wright or earlier Firmin. Firmin took over S+W in 1972.

I will probably not be able to follow this up further for a week or so as will be on my way to UK in a few hours time.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Forgot to say.

Don't worry about the material used to make the lugs they probably are not made of anodised aluminium. What you are comparing are the tools used to cut and form the lug wire and shape the lug itself and the era that they were used in.

The use of lug metal used is not a production issue and modern lug making tools can without doubt knock out lugs in anodised aluminium or any other malleable material.

Regards

Chris

[2747andy]

Not sure where my last posts and photos have gone, I'll repost in the morning!!!

Badjez - I would not worry about taking your badge off the beret, they do not go together anyway, it is an Officers pattern badge on an ORs beret?

Andy

[badjez]

Andy,
Thank you. I was aware it was not an officer's issue and wouldn't have expected a TA Northants officer in 1950 to bother buying pukka kit. It may have belonged to an ex/National Serviceman doing his reserve time or just used for playing in the mud! The badge has definately been there for years. It has a steel cotted pin forced in instead of a split pin and I don't want to risk breaking the lugs by forcing it out.
Regards, Stephen.

[2747andy]

Well I would like thanks all of those who posted replies to this thread.

In my opinion the badge is not genuine, it appears to have been produced at the request of the Regimental Association, although it bears the makers mark of "Gaunt London" I have no evidence either way as to whether or not it was made by them. There appears to have been around 20 of them found in a box which were sold on by the Regtl Assn to raise funds?

My reasons for thinking it is a reproduction are;

Poor Quality manufacture, would not pass any MOD or Regimental inspection!
Cosmetic rivets that serve no purpose other than to look like originals?
Badge constructed in one part, cast and not die struck and then "MADE TO LOOK LIKE" an original Gilt and Silvered 2 part badge?
Gold coloured finish is an applied gilt wash and not gilt metal!
Lugs also appear to be cast!
Although stamped "P" for silver plate, badge has more of an alloy appearance than SP.
Far too new in appearence even if it had been in a box for a long period?
Although I have not seen the construction of a Genuine example, I would imagine that a badge which is mostly Gilt would be made in gilt with the much smaller area of Silvered metal applied to it via rivets or brazed?

I must add that the seller who sold me the badge has been 100% cooperative in its return, although seeming a little annoyed that I started this thread on the Forum in the first instance, he has since been very Wilco. Nothing that I would not expect from a member of this Forum or one with access to it!

Badges are made and worn for specific periods for units, a Regimental Association or Museum that commissions the production of items for keepsake or fund raising purposes does not make them in anyway, shape or form Original or Genuine and although produced with good intention, they are still Fakes, Reproductions or Restrikes! At least when The Gurkha museum had badges made for this purpose they were clearly stamped "COPY" on the rear, which would prevent the badges being sold on and on and on, each time for a profit which will never reach the original intended "Good Cause"!!

I hope this thread prevents any members obtaining one of these badges from thinking that it is anything other than a "COPY"! I am often asked for my opinion on items, this time the answer is, keep your money and do not splash out! IMO

Andy