Help with Border Regiment badges - Page 3 - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

ray smith · #31 04-04-17, 05:50 PM

Paul tell you Pal I will show him some nice Shoulder Titles if he puts some input to this thread.LoL
As a bonus I will show him some thing he will enjoy.LoL
Regards
Ray

Alan O · #32 04-04-17, 06:47 PM

Thank you for sharing. I am afraid that I remain of the opinion that the blank scrolled ebay special cap badge is a total fake design.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_fr...badge&_sacat=0

Paul Spellman · #33 04-04-17, 06:50 PM

Ray,
I think he is shy! He is also new to the forum. But I am sure he will be able to contribute with some expertise with what he collects. He is Dean's (Mooke) friend so maybe he can coax him out of his shell.
It is great to see your badges Ray, I would of thought there would of been more Border Regt collectors who could contribute though.
Paul

Longdog · #34 04-04-17, 07:06 PM

Hello Ray / Paul,

I have been greatly enjoying reading this thread relating to the Border Regiment and seeing so many nice badges.
Am learning all the time about the finer aspects of detail, great to benefit from you all and thanks for sharing.

Paul,
Whoever are you talking about?
Your earlier post must just be a coincidence as I happen to collect only metal shoulder titles...!!
Yes, I do have a small collection of titles to the Borders, very much work in progress.

Ray,
I would certainly appreciate seeing any titles you may have but do not wish to divert this most interesting thread yourself, Paul and Alan have developed in any way.

All the best,

Pat

ray smith · #35 04-04-17, 07:12 PM

Hi Paul,
Yes I am a bit disappointed with so few passing comments, The reason I show the badges is to let other collectors know what is out there.
Still I have had pleasure showing them and hope it will help members of the Forum in some way.
I have a few more of the Border Regiment badges to show yet. Enjoy them as they come and be free to let me know if there any issues.
Alun thank you for your input to this thread.
All the very best
Ray

Paul Spellman · #36 04-04-17, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O

Thank you for sharing. I am afraid that I remain of the opinion that the blank scrolled ebay special cap badge is a total fake design.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_fr...badge&_sacat=0

I have shown this here before and it came from the same auction linked earlier, the badge itself conforms with a lot I look for, size,weight,detail ,fixings etc. It does however have an erased motto (although on this the motto is ghosting) which a lot of the fake militia badges as Alan linked to also have. I don't think the erased motto is wrong and think that there is probably a reason for it which at the moment I don't know and I know there are a lot of fakes of this badge as with many others. I will also post a Cross belt plate with erased ring which I am sure is to a Lancashire/Cumbria Militia or Volunteer Bn which also would of been a reason for doing. The CBP was from the Hugh King collection.
I actually got a good image and think some good detail came up on the Militia Cap Badge.
Both these badge I am very happy with
Paul

Paul Spellman · #37 04-04-17, 07:46 PM

Lancs/Cumbria erased ring

Alan O · #38 05-04-17, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

I have shown this here before and it came from the same auction linked earlier, the badge itself conforms with a lot I look for, size,weight,detail ,fixings etc. It does however have an erased motto (although on this the motto is ghosting) which a lot of the fake militia badges as Alan linked to also have. I don't think the erased motto is wrong and think that there is probably a reason for it which at the moment I don't know and I know there are a lot of fakes of this badge as with many others. I will also post a Cross belt plate with erased ring which I am sure is to a Lancashire/Cumbria Militia or Volunteer Bn which also would of been a reason for doing. The CBP was from the Hugh King collection.
I actually got a good image and think some good detail came up on the Militia Cap Badge.
Both these badge I am very happy with
Paul

Paul

Does this one have the brass trips on the back behind the void?

I can't understand the logic for removing the motto at all. Why do it? It's a bespoke die and not a Regular Bn one. I could understand if it had a Honi Soit motto as per the militia and VB badges.

Alan

Paul Spellman · #39 05-04-17, 08:07 AM

Hi Alan,
Brass holding tabs shown
It is a mystery to me why this was done, I have explored a few options, Boer War raised 3rd VB, Soldiers in training etc but have yet to come up with any evidence, it may have been a worn die and my badge could be the daddy of the fakes. But it has been shown to a few trusted dealers, they as I believe it is a genuine badge.
Paul

Paul Spellman · #40 05-04-17, 08:42 AM

Rather than go into weights and other things, I think the easiest way to spot a fake Border Regt badge is the voids around the dragon and the dragons shape. I lifted a couple of images rather quickly from the Internet of what I believe are fake, there is sadly very many of them, if you compare them with the plastic and metal badge I have above you will see the difference. Some are rather blatant with three or four drill holes but others the fakers have attempted to shape the voids. There are some were the stamping process has failed to clear the void in areas but the dragons shape which did not change is a good indicator of a safe badge.
There are specific unvoided badges Officers and ER11 examples but the dragon shape stays the same
Hope this helps
Paul

Alan O · #41 05-04-17, 10:35 AM

I have seen a 3rd VB badge before and it was not this design. This one is presumably post 1905 with the SA honour.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...e-a5de009c64c2

I suspect the badge was for the 'new' peaked cap that came into service that year. Beforehand the VB seem to have generally worn side caps (badgeless or with collars) or the slouch hat.

I have posted this link before of the 2VB Borders in 1900-01,

http://www.sole.org.uk/ssoldiers.htm

Paul Spellman · #42 05-04-17, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O

I have seen a 3rd VB badge before and it was not this design. This one is presumably post 1905 with the SA honour.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...e-a5de009c64c2

I suspect the badge was for the 'new' peaked cap that came into service that year. Beforehand the VB seem to have generally worn side caps (badgeless or with collars) or the slouch hat.

I have posted this link before of the 2VB Borders in 1900-01,

http://www.sole.org.uk/ssoldiers.htm

Yes Alan, most likely post 1905, I viewed this badge at the Auction but had already budgeted for other items, the next badge at Lot 101 is also described as 3rd Bn but regarded as a Militia Bn badge. This is why I wandered if the 3rd VB badge (they being raised rather quickly for Boer War service) was adjusted by the wearers/Bn for their own unique badge. Probably something I will never know.
Paul

Alan O · #43 05-04-17, 11:07 AM

I don't think it's Boer war as all photos I have seen, in SA or in UK, show FSH, slouch hats or side caps.

I think your badge, like the 3VB, one is post 1905 and was made for the peaked cap introduced in that year.

It is rather odd that the erasing has been done but you don't see any un-erased versions?

The Arros Dos motto is clearly linked to the 35th Foot so there is logic in the militia bn and the VBs not wearing it on their badges and using the Honi Soit instead. But I fail to see the logic of why a unit would remove that as well?

Alan O · #44 05-04-17, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

Yes Alan, most likely post 1905, I viewed this badge at the Auction but had already budgeted for other items, the next badge at Lot 101 is also described as 3rd Bn but regarded as a Militia Bn badge. This is why I wandered if the 3rd VB badge (they being raised rather quickly for Boer War service) was adjusted by the wearers/Bn for their own unique badge. Probably something I will never know.
Paul

Paul

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...c-a5de009c64c2
The use of the Arroyo Dos motto threw me.

http://border-regiment-forum.com/gal...&image_id=9343

This is a really good picture which is without question from the 3rd Bn showing the same blank arms but with the Honi Soit motto in the centre.

Was the Arroyo Dos motto on Lot 131 an error?

Now if your totally blank badge had the Arroyo Dos motto erased then it would be a contender for an adapted militia die being erased as they did not have the right to use the Arros motto. A die maker's error subsequently rectified by deleting the incorrect motto completely?

Alan

Paul Spellman · #45 05-04-17, 11:29 AM

Alan,
It may be as simple as you suggest that the wrong Motto was used on the badge.
Paul