Raised dagger

[Donny B.]

Pardon my ignorance.

Can anyone tell me if these are military or not, and if so, which units may have worn them?

Donny B.

[Mike Jackson]

Australian c 1950s - 13th Infantry Brigade. I believe that the definitive design is the version with the dagger point to the right.

[Donny B.]

Thanks Mike!

I rather hoped (expected) that they would be Australian but I got a bit worried when the only rather similar raised dagger patch that I could find on the forum....different colours...... was described as "The raised dagger. That is Indian".

I guess I should have known an Australian item but my cloth collection is rather meagre and my reference material in that area is sadly lacking.

Donny B.

[Mike Jackson]

I've no idea what the significance of the design is, but no doubt a Forum member will tell us. In the meantime:

http://militaria-sales.com.au/format...ir-p-1462.html

[Donny B.]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

I've no idea what the significance of the design is, but no doubt a Forum member will tell us. In the meantime:

http://militaria-sales.com.au/format...ir-p-1462.html

Hopefully someone will!

Yes! I found that Militaria Sales link.......... after you told me what the patch was.


Donny B.

[Spr Jock]

A raised arm with a bladed weapon like that , is not uncommon in European heraldic devices , and often seen in Scottish clan crests.
There may be a connection .

[kingsley]

The dagger design is in fact Scottish: it was the crest of NSW Governor Lachlan Macquarie (1810-21), possibly our most famous early colonial governor who cleaned up the mess left by the "Rum Corps" and the rebellion against Governor Bligh in 1809. There are dozens of places named after him. The Chancellor of Macq University has one of his chairs with the device on top.

[Spr Jock]

Yes ,
I considered that too .
I had wondered if there a connection between Macquarie and the 13th Infantry Brigade or Western Australia .

Jock

[rockape560]

hi donny,

hope this helps.its your raised dagger on the scots clan wallace crest,perhaps a link there if their 1st commander had a scots background

philip

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cl...w=1366&bih=601

[Spr Jock]

Originally Posted by rockape560

hi donny,

hope this helps.its your raised dagger on the scots clan wallace crest,perhaps a link there if their 1st commander had a scots background

philip

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cl...w=1366&bih=601

Phillip ,

the Wallace Arms have the arm 'embowed' down (arm and blade angled down), not raised .
And the blade is a sword not a dagger.

Jock

[Donny B.]

Thanks for the informative responses, you blokes.

I can see the difference in the way the weapon is raised in the Clan Wallace device and on the patch that I posted..

Unfortunately I can not see an imaginable connection between Governor Macquarie, who died in 1824 and an infantry brigade raised in Western Australia almost a hundred years later.....other than that symbol.

Some interesting history to be researched there.

Mike Jackson suggested that it was a 1950's patch. I gather that the 13th Brigade was on again off again a few times. It was existant from 1948 to 1960, the period suggested by Mike, and did include the Cameron Highlanders of Western Australia. If the raised dagger is a Scottish clan crest perhaps the connection is there, somewhere.

Donny B.

[Mike Jackson]

Could this be related - 33rd Aust Inf Bn - The New England Regiment - possibly the parent regiment of one of 13 Bde's Commanders?
20130121_Aus 33 Inf Bn New England Regt.jpg

[Spr Jock]

Could be , they come from from NSW tho , wrong side of Australia ?

And if the definitive design is the version with the dagger point to the right , then the one above , being sinister not dexter, is not the parent .

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Spr Jock

Could be , they come from from NSW tho , wrong side of Australia ?

And if the definitive design is the version with the dagger point to the right , then the one above , being sinister not dexter, is not the parent .

It's the closest I can find! Although the 13 Inf Bde arm is in chainmail - more like a gladiator?

[Spr Jock]

In heraldry , when a device is described as armour it generally means suit armour of the type that we associate with armoured knights . This also applies to hands/ fists.
It is the most common.

Leather , reinforced with iron plates is referred to as Vambraced and is used less often .

Mail Armour (chain mail) was a Celtic invention and used first by them . It predates heraldic devices by one or two thousand years .
It depiction in a device is new to me .

As far as I am aware , full mail gauntlet gloves are a 20th century product.


I 'spose it's possible that a Fremantle freezing worker designed the patch for the 13th Infantry Brigade

Jock