WW1 Aussie felt hat

[pukman]

If your anything like me, sometimes your badge collecting spills over to the things they were attached too.I have about a dozen NZ WW1/WW2 era hats and helmets.A collectior friend of mine has this Aussie hat that was bought back by a NZ mounted rifle soldier ,who fought in Palestine in WW1.Its an Austalian worn ,English made hat,late WW1.Another collecting friend ,who i might add is an expert in the uniform collecting sphere thinks it is ALH.I would think it was obtained in the theatre that the soldier served in,namely the middle East,WW1.Obviously if it is an ALH hat,its missing its plume and badge,as well as its sweatband and chinstrap.But a rare find any way you look at it.

any ideas on value for insurance purposes?

cheers iain

[slick_mick]

A lot! LOL

People pay big $$$ for WW1 slouch hats.

At a guess $2000-3000.

Mick

[pukman]

The dome indicates its English manufacture ,i own a English made WW1 NZ lemon squeezer with a similar dome attachment.

[pukman]

Hello Mick,

the NZ soldier who bought this back from the Middle East in WW1 served there from about July 1917 till after the war.Not being an expert on Aussie military history or anything but were most of the Australians serving at that stage,cavalry .It its Austalian Light Horse would that add to its collectability

cheers iain

[slick_mick]

Hi Iain,

Yes - most of the Aussie in the Middle East were Light Horse or attached to Light Horse regiments or higher formations.

Mick

[atillathenunns]

Hi Iain,

I have a little bit of information on British military felt hats being issued to the Australians in the middle east campaign.
I however have loads of information (Photographic) showing that British military felt hats were commonly issued to New Zealanders in the middle east.

The hat you have pictured shows standard twin vent holes used with British made felt hats (Australian made felt hats usually had 3 vent holes and New Zealand made felts hats had none)
The puggaree you have pictured is standard British issue, these were sometimes removed and replaced with an Australian or New Zealand puggaree, however many surviving examples that I have seen show that the Australian or New Zealand puggarees were worn directly over the top of the Brit puggaree.
I have a couple of photos of New Zealanders (Post #135 on the NZMGS thread) showing just the British pug being worn.

My thinking is--
Why would a kiwi trade a felt hat from an Aussie when they were commonly issued to the New Zealanders anyway?

The only answer I can think of is that the hat would have had an Australian badge and plume to make the trade (theft) more interesting.

I am no expert, but it is my understanding the Aussie light horse wore their badges to the front of their hats.
As such my questions are--
What is the distance of the badge holes on the front of the hat?
Are there signs of badge holes below the snap clip?

Why all the questions?
Well if it is proven to be Australian WW1 issue, this would achieve more than 4 to 10 times the price than it would if it was issued to a New Zealander.

Brent

[pukman]

Hello Brent,

As you know I'm no expert ,but i do consult with the experts(one which has examined the hat also) as well as do a little homework on the side.While i would have to inspect the hat again ,i am sure there is not any badge holes on the side and possibly not the front.If you follow my thread on NZMR.org you will find the New Zealand trooper , and a few of his items,which are undenilable.

Heres a couple of examples of authentic ALH hats both in different style.Firstly with with the folded pugaree and the badge to the front and secondly with the plain pugaree and no badge ,clipped up at the side.

regards iain

[atillathenunns]

Iain, I had indeed seen your post on the NZMR forum.
Its not the hat that I have difficulty believing in, its the story of it being obtained from an Aussie that I find difficulty believing.

Could you expand on why you believe it was obtained from an Australian?

Is it not possible that the hat in question was simply issued to a New Zealander, and someone in modern times has "misidentified" it as an "Australian issue" and fabricated the story of it being obtained from an Australian?

[pukman]

Brent,

I dare say the story of the NZMR trooper obtaining the hat from an Aussie ALH soldier is totally mine .As i have quoted at another website''this is in all probability was a hat swap betwen Trooper Weir and a Australian Light Horseman''.Still i base that i what i think is a number of factors .The hat and the tunic have been in the possesion of the troopers family for over 90 years,they are unadultered by the fingers of any collectors or dealers.

My source who has an extensive collection of uniforms ,spanning many decades and has a few letters behind name including some for military history,has seen this hat and 100% believed it to be ALH.He also adds ''the pugarees for the British slouch hats issued to NZers were always folded khaki cotton''. and '' the hat itself is likely to be U.K made

We believe this is Austalian issue not New Zealand


And of course exhibit B from the Victorian museum showing an original ALH which is essentially the same hat minus the plume.I would imagine the plume to be the first thing to perish or be stolen by grandma for her finest hat.Badge no issue.

ANd Several other forum sources claiming it to be an English made ,Austalian issue hat(see the Great War Forum)

I look forward to hearing from Australian authorities on ALH uniforms.

cheers iain

[badgecollector]

Hi Iain
I’m not going to get drawn into the debate over if this hat is ww1 (which it probably is) or if it was worn by an Aussie, a brit or a kiwi. Or who made it or how it was obtained. My thoughts are what is the difference between the ALH, infantry, artillery, and corps (including camel corps) slouch hats. In my humble opinion, there is none.
People do pay big dollars for Aussie slouch hats, but with no sweatband and chinstrap, and probably being made in England, these factors would detract from the purist Aussie collector.
BC

[pukman]

Thats fair enough comment.The hat is missing iits sweatband ,chinstrap and plume,its not in pristine shape.But i would suggest to you that the pristine ones have probably not been out of quartermasters stores ,this one has the provenance that it has been in the Middle East in WW1.I know purist Aussie collectors rate provenance after showing photo's of a sandcast Australian camel corp badge which had no provenance.Only ones with provenance could be classed as genuine came the cry.

Now i guess it comes down to the pugaree on this hat to determine whether it is either a British made , Australian issue felt hat with ALH connections, our a British made felt hat issued to New Zealanders.

My impeccable source says the plain pugaree is Australian issue,and that the British made slouch hats issued to NZers have folded pugarees ,and Brent maintains that the British made slouch issued to the NZers in the Middle East in WW1 have the plain pugaree also.One of them (or perhaps both) is right.Lets hope we get to the bottom of this to let the collector know what he's really got.

I know that genuine WW1 Australian felt hats ,if their Australian made or British made,are well sort after ,because their rare,even if not in the greatest of shape.This one isn't too bad and i would sure be happy if it was in my hat collection given its provenance as well.

cheers iain

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

I dare say the story of the NZMR trooper obtaining the hat from an Aussie ALH soldier is totally mine .

It is an undestandable mistake to make considering you were given incorrect information regarding ''the pugarees for the British slouch hats issued to NZers were always folded khaki cotton.''

Although Australians were also issued British manufactured felt hats, your friends hat is a text book example of what I would expect of a felt hat that was worn by a New Zealander in the Middle East.

It is a fine example of a WW1 NZMR felt hat.

Brent

[atillathenunns]

Check out post No.# 5, you can just make out the Brit pug under the New Zealand Pug.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ead.php?t=9345

[pukman]

Brent,

my chins big enough to admit when im wrong or my informations wrong .But..... unfortunately i'm not convinced by the evidence you have bought forward so far.An already adultered hat and a very hazy unfocused photo don't exactly convince me .

I dare say i have nothing to gain from this other than the truth about the probable origins of the hat that belongs to a friend of mine.A bit of egg on the face from an unknown from the backblocks of no -where is the only indignity that i can suffer.

If its NZMR hat that was worn by the owner of the tunic then all and good .If its a Austalian issue ALH hat ,as i have been lead to believe, then good as all good as well.

So by all means show me some unequivical evidence that the NZMR used the plain pugaree ,then i might come around.

regards Iain





Still the identification of NZ WW1 headwear is in its infancy even with the advent of a couple of reference books,im told theres a new one on the market

[atillathenunns]

Iain, as your mirrored opposite I am primarily a NZ hat collector who has spilled over to things (badges) that are attached to them.

Originally Posted by pukman

Still the identification of NZ WW1 headwear is in its infancy even with the advent of a couple of reference books,im told theres a new one on the market

The only book that I know that has attempted to explain New Zealand felt hats is the excellent book "New Zealand Army uniforms and clothing 1910 - 1945" by Barry and Matthew O'Sullivan.
I would be very interested to know the name of this new reference book you mention?

There is no need for me to provide unequivical evidence that the NZMR used the plain puggaree, it has already been discussed on the Militarianz forum by "Rod W" representing one of the finest Australian slouch hat collections and "Mike 39" representing one of the finest New Zealand felt hat collections.
Unfortunately you will have to work your way through loads of different threads on NZ and Australian felt hats to gain a better understanding, but it is worth the effort.
As some of the photos are now removed from these threads, you might want to contact Rod and Mike directly for photos of their British made felt hats.

http://militarianz.freeforums.org/ww...116.html#p5833

Iain, its not about proving you to be wrong, its about going the extra mile and proving your own research is correct and getting it right when it comes to supplying information to your friend about his hat.

Brent