Beret patches worn by 2/4th Australian Armoured Regiment - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Nik7304 · #1 04-02-11, 04:16 PM

Hi chaps,

Is there someone knowledgeable who knows what patch the 2/4th AAR wore on their berets in WWII? I think it might be their crocodile logo, but not sure. If anyone has a scan or photo along with colours and measurements I'd be deeply appreciative.

Also, just to make sure, was the beret black or khaki, seem to get conflicting answers on this...

Mike Jackson · #2 04-02-11, 05:18 PM

Not the complete answer, but time spent - on line - in the Australian War Memorial photographic library will probably provide more information. In the meantime, here is the CO, Lt Col T Mills MC...........
Lt Col T Mills MC AWM 075963.jpg

Nik7304 · #3 04-02-11, 05:34 PM

It's the AWM site which gave rise to it in the first place.

I found this one, would that be correct for 1944-45?

It stems from this group photos of 8 Troop, B Sqn, on Bougainville:

http://cas.awm.gov.au/screen_img/098081

slick_mick · #4 04-02-11, 07:35 PM

I believe the wearing of colour patches on berets was an unofficial practice.

Officially they would have worn the Rising Sun badge on their berets.

Mick

John L · #5 05-02-11, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik7304

It's the AWM site which gave rise to it in the first place.

I found this one, would that be correct for 1944-45?

It stems from this group photos of 8 Troop, B Sqn, on Bougainville:

http://cas.awm.gov.au/screen_img/098081

Glyde's book shows that patch as being 1945-1946.
The 1944 patch is pentgon shaped,

John

lettman · #6 05-02-11, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik7304

Hi chaps,

Is there someone knowledgeable who knows what patch the 2/4th AAR wore on their berets in WWII? I think it might be their crocodile logo, but not sure. If anyone has a scan or photo along with colours and measurements I'd be deeply appreciative.

Also, just to make sure, was the beret black or khaki, seem to get conflicting answers on this...

Khaki berets were worn by armd regts until black ones were officially authorised in March 1945, but in practice not issued (to any armd regt) until about June/July 1945. Colour patches were worn on both khaki and black berets together with rising sun badges, but often the colour patch was removed while on campaign.

Photographic evidence shows that 2/4th Armd Regt went overseas in 1944 wearing the black and yellow hexagonal patch (Glyde no. 528) on their khaki berets. I've seen no photos showing that patch's replacement, the light blue and dark blue 'tank' shape (Glyde no. 545), being worn on the beret while on campaign.

Mike Jackson · #7 05-02-11, 07:45 AM

It's a minefield (to a Pom)
Excellent information above. The pentagon shape referred to above indicates a unit or formation which traced its origins back to 1 Aust Armd Div. The hexagonal shape indicates roots in 3 Aust Armd Div. The colours University Blue/Sky Blue were those authorised (on the pentagon) for 4 Aust Motor Regt (GRO 468/43). This was then amended by GRO 368/44 by the addition of the superimposed grey tank silhouette and the "2 AIF" grey surround to the colour patch. By this time the unit's title was 2/4 Aust Armd Regt.
The black/yellow hexagonal patch with superimposed grey tank silhouette was authorised for 4 Aust Armd Regt by GRO 165/43 (the yellow portion indicating subordination to the-then HQ 2 Aust Armd Bde. At some unspecified later time this same colour scheme (black/yellow with grey tank) was adopted (on the grey-bordered pentagon) by 2/10 Aust Armd Regt.

This information is derived from an unreferenced Australian Army document dated late 1945 or 1946 with 36 pages (c 700 colour patches) which was reproduced as a very limited colour edition by the late Dave Allen some 10-15 years ago. When time permits I'll post illustrations from this document of the variants referred to above. Tracking all this whilst succesfully operating Matilda tanks in the jungles of New Guinea must have been something of a challenge!

fearnaught · #8 05-02-11, 05:49 PM

Hi Mike, I think the document you refer to was ARMY COLOUR PATCH REGISTER which had a forward by Major General P M Jeffery AM MC and was all the orders they could find authorising patches.2/4th light blue/dark blue was authorised in O.388,no date other than 1944 between Feb and Nov.The same order shows 1st Arm Reg light blue/white. Mr Allen did a great job as there are innumerable changes and mistakes. Sorry to hear he has died as he was a great help when I was trying to untangle the patches. The History of Austalian Armour is also a great help. There are two clear photo's of 1st Arm Div and 2/4th officers wearing cloth badge on khaki beret. Captain Penfold campaigned for a black beret in 1930. The Australian made ones were despised by the officers and the RTC sent them 60 British made ones. Either they were very hard wearing or the Aussies got their act together as the 6th Cav were wearing black berets in Syria 1941. Will try and post some pics of patches soon Mike

fearnaught · #9 05-02-11, 06:04 PM

Hi, 2/4th transferred from 2 Armd Bde to 4 Armd Bde Oct 1943, Aug 1944 to SWPA Mike

fearnaught · #10 06-02-11, 02:19 PM

Hi, the patches are shown in "some more not so old cloth" Mike

lettman · #11 07-02-11, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearnaught

Hi Mike, I think the document you refer to was ARMY COLOUR PATCH REGISTER which had a forward by Major General P M Jeffery AM MC and was all the orders they could find authorising patches.2/4th light blue/dark blue was authorised in O.388,no date other than 1944 between Feb and Nov.The same order shows 1st Arm Reg light blue/white. Mr Allen did a great job as there are innumerable changes and mistakes. Sorry to hear he has died as he was a great help when I was trying to untangle the patches. The History of Austalian Armour is also a great help. There are two clear photo's of 1st Arm Div and 2/4th officers wearing cloth badge on khaki beret. Captain Penfold campaigned for a black beret in 1930. The Australian made ones were despised by the officers and the RTC sent them 60 British made ones. Either they were very hard wearing or the Aussies got their act together as the 6th Cav were wearing black berets in Syria 1941. Will try and post some pics of patches soon Mike

Divisional cavalry regiments need to be treated differently from Armoured regiments in the AIF. Div Cav (later Cavalry Commando) regts always wore a black beret; Hopkins of the armoured 'corps' lobbied for a distinctive beret and hence the khaki for tank/armoured regts. The example in my collection of a Div Cav beret is a black British made RAC model dated 1941 with a collar-sized rising sun badge (and NO colour patch). By the time the Armd Regts switched to black berets, these were being made in Australia, with both hat-sized rising sun and a colour patch -- I have a 1945-dated Oz-made example with large badge and 4th Armd Bde AEME LAD workshop patch.

lettman · #12 07-02-11, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lettman

I've seen no photos showing that patch's replacement, the light blue and dark blue 'tank' shape (Glyde no. 545), being worn on the beret while on campaign.

I should have said here 'on the KHAKI beret while on campaign' -- obviously it was worn on the new black ones!

fearnaught · #13 07-02-11, 03:03 PM

Hi, I'm not quite sure what you are saying about the black beret and the commandos. They were formed at the Guerilla Warfare Training School, as far as I know they were called 1-4 Independent Companies and later renamed Cavalry Commando Squadrons. The 2nd AIF sent 3 divs 6,7and 9th to N. Africa, each had a Div. Recon. Reg which were renamed Div. Cav. Regs. When these returned to Aus. in 1942 they were renamed as commandos. During their middle east service they were armoured with a variety of AFVs. I've enclosed a couple of photo's, one of Penfold at Ranwick in 1930 wearing black beret and Paratus badge and the other is unamed from 6th Div. Cav. Reg. Do you have any details on when or why the khaki beret was taken into service? Mike

lettman · #14 07-02-11, 10:26 PM

Mike,
I tried to make the distinction between Div Cav regts and Armd regts, but obviously didn't do a very good job of it. The two are quite separate types of units, and wore different berets. The original Independent companies are different again; they were not mechanised units and were not issued berets. Later in the war the Div Cav units were re-titled Cavalry Commando units, and (possibly) retained their black berets as a parade dress item -- at least the 9th Cav Cdo pipe band seems to have done so. Anyway, for the purposes of this thread about cav/armd units, you need to forget about the Independent Coys, as the waters are already muddy enough!

Nik7304 · #15 10-02-11, 12:10 PM

Thanks for all the information in here. Attached is the photo on which I'm basing this. I had assumed it's the badge I showed above. The picture was taken on Bougainville in October 1945 and shows Trooper Stanley Hunter of 8 Troop, B Sqn. Am I correct in my assumption or should it be the pentagonal patch like this instead? I assumed it was the "tank" because there's no dark shape on the "front" of the badge and the dark line on the bottom seemed to better match that patch.

Also, black beret. Looking at the AWM photos, it seems to be a case of both being used. In my case I'm going with black as I'm creating a 1/6 scale model and can't get a khaki beret.