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  #1  
Old 10-10-10, 12:23 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
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Default QUEEN'S CROWN BADGES IN USE IN 1957

I have gone through Major Edward's book 2nd Edn dated 1957. It is an illuminating read as he compiled it from correspondance with CO's of the day, Gaunt's existing stock and the sealed patterns held in the WO at the time.

This is a list of all of the Queen's crown badges shown in use in 1957. It is remarkably short. He also notes that quote" the new crown- St Edward's crown and will replace the current Imperial crown."

1. Life Guards.
2. Royal Horse Guards.
3. North Somerset Yeomanry.
4. Dorset Yeomanry.
5. Hertfordshire Yeomanry (stag in garter).
6. Middlesex Yeomanry.
7. Norfolk Yeomanry.
8. RHA cypher.
9. RE.
10. RASC.
11. MPSC.
12. Mobile Defence Corps.
13. RMA Sandhurst.
14. Duke of Yorks military school.

While not Q/C the Rifle Bde have their Gulpheric crown and the Wiltshire have the PP coronet.

It is not until the 1960s editions that kings crown badges have disappeared. The only caveat is that he has only mentioned where officers and ORs badges differ so it is conceivable that while the Officers badges are now made in q/c the ORs might still have k/c badges in use. Despite this the dating of K/C badges as up to 1953 is not correct as shown by this book.
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  #2  
Old 11-10-10, 09:50 AM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
I have gone through Major Edward's book 2nd Edn dated 1957. It is an illuminating read as he compiled it from correspondance with CO's of the day, Gaunt's existing stock and the sealed patterns held in the WO at the time.

This is a list of all of the Queen's crown badges shown in use in 1957. It is remarkably short. He also notes that quote" the new crown- St Edward's crown and will replace the current Imperial crown."

1. Life Guards.
2. Royal Horse Guards.
3. North Somerset Yeomanry.
4. Dorset Yeomanry.
5. Hertfordshire Yeomanry (stag in garter).
6. Middlesex Yeomanry.
7. Norfolk Yeomanry.
8. RHA cypher.
9. RE.
10. RASC.
11. MPSC.
12. Mobile Defence Corps.
13. RMA Sandhurst.
14. Duke of Yorks military school.

While not Q/C the Rifle Bde have their Gulpheric crown and the Wiltshire have the PP coronet.

It is not until the 1960s editions that kings crown badges have disappeared. The only caveat is that he has only mentioned where officers and ORs badges differ so it is conceivable that while the Officers badges are now made in q/c the ORs might still have k/c badges in use. Despite this the dating of K/C badges as up to 1953 is not correct as shown by this book.
Hi Alan,

There are a few more in A/A (I can only speak for A/A but sometimes other metal types were authorised at the same time under the same change) as recorded as NEW PATTERN in the List of Changes documents.

These are:

Royal Pioneer Corps - Authorised 22nd Dec 1954
Royal Fusiliers - 30th Sept 1955
Royal Signals - 30th Sept 1955
Intelligence Corps - 30th Sept 1955
15th/19th Hussars - 31st Jan 1956
Border Rgt - 31st Dec 1956
Loyal Regt - 31st Dec 1956
Ryal Hampshire Regt - 31st Dec 1956
South Staffordshire Regt - 31st Dec 1956
Royal Devon Yeomanry - 31st Dec 1956

It is unknown though when these were actually manufactured and issued.

Note that the RASC in both A/A and GM was authorised on 30th November 1953 and sealed on 5th Feb 1953 is the first A/A badge known in St Edward Crown.

There are also a few authorised via List of Changes in 1957 - if required I can dig these out too.

Regards

Chris
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  #3  
Old 11-10-10, 10:10 AM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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Chris,

The beauty of Major Edward's book is that he recorded what was actually in use in 1956/7 so although those patterns wer authorised in the mid 50's they had not yet found their way into general use.

Alan
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  #4  
Old 11-10-10, 12:47 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Alan,

There are a few more in A/A (I can only speak for A/A but sometimes other metal types were authorised at the same time under the same change) as recorded as NEW PATTERN in the List of Changes documents.

These are:

Royal Pioneer Corps - Authorised 22nd Dec 1954
Royal Fusiliers - 30th Sept 1955
Royal Signals - 30th Sept 1955
Intelligence Corps - 30th Sept 1955
15th/19th Hussars - 31st Jan 1956
Border Rgt - 31st Dec 1956
Loyal Regt - 31st Dec 1956
Ryal Hampshire Regt - 31st Dec 1956
South Staffordshire Regt - 31st Dec 1956
Royal Devon Yeomanry - 31st Dec 1956

It is unknown though when these were actually manufactured and issued.

Note that the RASC in both A/A and GM was authorised on 30th November 1953 and sealed on 5th Feb 1953 is the first A/A badge known in St Edward Crown.

There are also a few authorised via List of Changes in 1957 - if required I can dig these out too.

Regards

Chris
For the SStaffs I have this:
Pattern No - 16958
Sealed - 18/10/1955
CB No. - CB 7520
Source - Derived from LoC dated 31th September 1956, Change C 7660.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.
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  #5  
Old 11-10-10, 01:29 PM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
I have gone through Major Edward's book 2nd Edn dated 1957. It is an illuminating read as he compiled it from correspondance with CO's of the day, Gaunt's existing stock and the sealed patterns held in the WO at the time.

This is a list of all of the Queen's crown badges shown in use in 1957. It is remarkably short. He also notes that quote" the new crown- St Edward's crown and will replace the current Imperial crown."

1. Life Guards.
2. Royal Horse Guards.
3. North Somerset Yeomanry.
4. Dorset Yeomanry.
5. Hertfordshire Yeomanry (stag in garter).
6. Middlesex Yeomanry.
7. Norfolk Yeomanry.
8. RHA cypher.
9. RE.
10. RASC.
11. MPSC.
12. Mobile Defence Corps.
13. RMA Sandhurst.
14. Duke of Yorks military school.

While not Q/C the Rifle Bde have their Gulpheric crown and the Wiltshire have the PP coronet.

It is not until the 1960s editions that kings crown badges have disappeared. The only caveat is that he has only mentioned where officers and ORs badges differ so it is conceivable that while the Officers badges are now made in q/c the ORs might still have k/c badges in use. Despite this the dating of K/C badges as up to 1953 is not correct as shown by this book.
That's a very skinny list as far as the infantry goes. Can we therefore assume that the likes of the East Surrey, Hants, Devonshire, Suffolk, RSF to name a few and made in metal are probably PRI items or were not officially recognised at the time of writing?
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  #6  
Old 11-10-10, 01:33 PM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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Yes. They do not feature in that Edition and appear with q/c only as TA badges in the mid 1960s.

The Suffolks is questionable as they were not worn by the TA as the Regt had a new a/a badge having been amalgamated.
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  #7  
Old 11-10-10, 06:42 PM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
Chris,

The beauty of Major Edward's book is that he recorded what was actually in use in 1956/7 so although those patterns wer authorised in the mid 50's they had not yet found their way into general use.

Alan
Hi Alan,

Sometimes they never got past the LoC. But you are right - with the army running on a maintenance basis old stocks would be used up before new pattern badges were ordered and if the unit completed service before these stocks were used up then 'QC' badges would never have been manufactured.

Regards

Chris
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  #8  
Old 11-10-10, 06:46 PM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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Chris,

Interestingly going through Bosley's postal auction today they list a lot of k/c badges as 1901-52 when clearly they were often ordered, made and worn for years after that.

Alan
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  #9  
Old 11-10-10, 06:51 PM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
For the SStaffs I have this:
Pattern No - 16958
Sealed - 18/10/1955
CB No. - CB 7520
Source - Derived from LoC dated 31th September 1956, Change C 7660.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.
Hi Fougasse1940,

I have this change under volume LXVI being List Of Changes dated 31st December 1956 - Change Numbers C 7636 to C 7778. Every thing else seems OK though with designation notes of:

NEW PATTERN. A pattern (No. 16958) has been sealed to govern future manufacture. It differs from the old (No. 4527A Cat. No. CB 3116 and CB 0378) (C 4717, C 4583) in that it incorporates the St. Edward Crown.

Regards

Chris
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  #10  
Old 11-10-10, 06:59 PM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
Chris,

Interestingly going through Bosley's postal auction today they list a lot of k/c badges as 1901-52 when clearly they were often ordered, made and worn for years after that.

Alan
Hi Alan,

Yes and for some A/A badges the St Edward crown item is rarer than the Tudor crown piece.

Regards

Chris
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  #11  
Old 11-10-10, 11:16 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Fougasse1940,

I have this change under volume LXVI being List Of Changes dated 31st December 1956 - Change Numbers C 7636 to C 7778. Every thing else seems OK though with designation notes of:

NEW PATTERN. A pattern (No. 16958) has been sealed to govern future manufacture. It differs from the old (No. 4527A Cat. No. CB 3116 and CB 0378) (C 4717, C 4583) in that it incorporates the St. Edward Crown.

Regards

Chris
Thanks Chris, apparently my September is off by a few months then. Clueless where the difference stems from though.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.
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  #12  
Old 12-10-10, 06:54 AM
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The Liverpool Irish (then an RA unit) did not change to St Edward's crown until the introduction of their AA badges in 1964 !!
Though curiously, their officer's badges retained the Tudor crown until the end ! (in 1967)
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  #13  
Old 15-10-10, 05:42 PM
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Cardiffbloke Cardiffbloke is offline
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The Queen's Bays St Edward's Crown Cap Badge: Amendment 66 of 1955 to the 1953 CCN notifies the obsolescence of the Tudor Crown Badge (catalogue number CB0261), replacing it with a gilding metal St Edward's Crown Badge (Catalogue number 2948). The Bays definitely received some of these badges as a good friend of mine received one from QM QDG in 1967 from his 'obsolete stores'.
The 1953 CCN Cat No CB3005 denoted the AAG version of this badge. Made by Gaunt.
Cox in Langridge mentions that "some ORs of the Queen's Bays wore the AAG version" and that none were noted wearing the GM version.
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  #14  
Old 17-10-10, 06:42 AM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardiffbloke View Post
The Queen's Bays St Edward's Crown Cap Badge: Amendment 66 of 1955 to the 1953 CCN notifies the obsolescence of the Tudor Crown Badge (catalogue number CB0261), replacing it with a gilding metal St Edward's Crown Badge (Catalogue number 2948). The Bays definitely received some of these badges as a good friend of mine received one from QM QDG in 1967 from his 'obsolete stores'.
The 1953 CCN Cat No CB3005 denoted the AAG version of this badge. Made by Gaunt.
Cox in Langridge mentions that "some ORs of the Queen's Bays wore the AAG version" and that none were noted wearing the GM version.
Hi Cardiffbloke,

I think that in this case the 1953 CCN references this A/A badge (CB 3005) back to change C 4717 which was a change of intent only and not a 'normal' List of Changes change. However, I do have a delivery note for A/A versions of this badge albeit after the amalgamation with the 1st King's Dragoon Guards.

Regards

Chris
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