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  #16  
Old 14-03-21, 10:20 AM
tonyboyle tonyboyle is offline
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I have a second one which came attached to the tricorn hat
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  #17  
Old 14-03-21, 12:55 PM
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Guzzman Guzzman is offline
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Default QARNNS cap badges

Hi Tony

Thanks for sending the images. I've reread everything I've got on QARNNS uniforms and 1953 is the date given for the introduction of the badge with red laurel leaves. The badges look pretty good but I still feel they are repros - the shape of the crown doesn't look quite right. And yes, there are some very good reproductions of badges out there! Especially if the badge is 'rare'!

How long have you had them both? And how come you have managed to get hold of two! Where did you find them? Assuming they are 'genuine' very, very few would have been issued and only for a very brief period of time. No-one else has ever seen one, there are no known photographs of them, and all the documentation gives 1953 as the date of introduction.

Please don't be offended by my doubting the authenticity of your badges. It's just that everything says they do not exist! This has really intrigued me. I like a good mystery! Have you got any documentation which refers to them being introduced prior to 1953? If so I'd love to see it.

I do have some images of QARNNS sisters wearing the old, smaller style badge. I'll scan them this afternoon and post them later.

Pete
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  #18  
Old 14-03-21, 01:48 PM
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Bosley's 06 Sep 2017 , LOT 551 :

"Queen Alexandra’s Royal Naval Nursing Service Officer’s cap badge. Scarce King’s Crown example embroidered in red and bullion."

It went for £80.00 Prices Realised

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...c55#lotDetails


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File Type: jpg QARNNS.jpg (81.5 KB, 21 views)
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  #19  
Old 14-03-21, 02:42 PM
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Just to cofuse matters !

Sally Bosleys badge shop has a badge described as :

"A very scarce original pre 1953 'Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service officer's hat badge', red embroidered laurel wreath surmounted by a King George VI Crown ........the reverse with waxed black hessian lining and white painted stores' number." The number is 39568.

https://www.sallybosleysbadgeshop.com/shop.php?ps=1 Page has 2 badges , one post 1953 the other pre 1953


A Google search for the number led to the IWM , no photo but description :

"Headdress badge to a Nursing Sister of the Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service, being a St. Edward's (Queen's) crown, in gold and silver padded embroidery with coloured silk detail, surmounting a gold embroidered fouled anchor entwined with the red double 'A' Cypher of Queen Alexandra, the anchor and cypher enclosed within a pair of red embroidered foliage fronds, all on a padded black backing cut to shape."

"Vocab No.: 39568; Badge Hat Q.A.R.N.N.S.; VTA 16/117 of 27.2.1954"

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30062825


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Last edited by mike_vee; 14-03-21 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Changed link
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  #20  
Old 14-03-21, 05:05 PM
tonyboyle tonyboyle is offline
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No offence taken, I bought them assuming such things existed and hence they are genuine but having come across a couple of references to the smaller badges I did wonder at what point they changed. I don’t have any proof they are the genuine article and am happy to take advice otherwise. I’ve seen the smaller badge on a WW2 film which was made during the war. As I said I’ve not found any QARNNS photographs which show cap badges, the majority seem to be sisters wearing the ward dress not the service dress, so if you do have any photographs showing caps being worn 1939 to 45 I would be interested.
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  #21  
Old 15-03-21, 04:11 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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I have no knowledge about the originality of KC badges but as I naval badge collector I would be surprised if they were passed as the leaves in the wreaths look terrible.
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  #22  
Old 15-03-21, 10:25 AM
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I know nothing about these badges , I just like solving puzzles.

What intrigued me is that twice Bosley's have described badges as "pre 1953" and "Kings crown" and that the stores/vocab number on one of them is the same as the description on the IWM site .

Are Bosley's wrong or am I simply misunderstanding what I'm reading.

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  #23  
Old 15-03-21, 11:56 AM
tonyboyle tonyboyle is offline
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Here are a few photos for comparison. I would say the quality of the stitching on the wreaths isn’t too different to the blue WRNS officers badges of the same period. They are both cotton and not gilt thread like the male officers badges so will never be as neat.
The third picture shows a QARNNS badge in situ on a mohair band and although it proves nothing it has a weathered tarnished look of some age. Finally the last picture is definitely a repro for comparison.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 02BFD4D9-F834-4D2E-9380-5DB8E019B4D2.jpg (72.9 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg D2C8765D-298B-4B34-8B44-F01D39134360.jpg (84.0 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg 8ADF9E04-C54D-42ED-BEF3-594797BFE60E.jpg (79.4 KB, 17 views)
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  #24  
Old 15-03-21, 12:38 PM
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Default QARNNS cap badge

Morning all!

Firstly I must apologise for not having had the opportunity to post my images of QARNNS sisters not wearing ward dress. I only have a couple of them as most of the time during the 1940s they seemed to wear ward dress! I will get to them though.

Once again I have been through all my books and notes on QARNNS uniforms and every time I come up with the same answer. The badges with red laurel leaves were not introduced until 1953. Sadly, everytime that I look at them I reach the same conclusion - these are deliberate fakes made to deceive.

I can only repeat what I have said already. Prior to 1953, when not in ward dress, and befitting their officer status, QAs wore the same privately purchased uniform as WRNS officers. However, their rank insignia were worn as epaulettes rather than cuff rings; and the cap badge was the King's crown surmounting the anchor entwined with the Queen Alexandra's cypher , the cypher and anchor being enclosed by a narrow border.

I have attached an image of one of these badges. This one is in silver wire, rather than gold, because it is the badge worn by a sister In the QARNNS Reserve. Apart from the colour of the wire, it is exactly the same badge worn by QARNNS sisters until the red-laurel wreath version was introduced in 1953.

For comparison I have also included the badge worn by naval nurses after their introduction in 1960. As you can see it is basically the same badge but with a Queen's crown. If it has a King's crown it was worn by a sister (an officer) and if it has a Queen's Crown it was worn by a naval nurse.

I have had a good, longer look at Tony's badges. There are a number of things that look wrong about them. I don't like the look of the crown - it seems oddly misshapen. And , like Alex, I'm not very happy with the quality of the laurel wreaths either. The shape appears wrong. And and any badge looking 'weathered' means nothing sadly. I'm sure we could all list lots of ways to age and weather fake insignia. I should think we've all been caught out in the past! I know I have.

The stock number is also odd. The number shown '39568' was, I believe, the correct stock number for the Queen's Crown version of the QARNNS badge. But any King's Crown version would have had a slightly different number. And I'm not even sure that an officers badge of this period would have had a stock number printed on the back. I believe that the number has either been added or that the back of a genuine QC version of the badge has been used in the construction of the fake badge. That would also account for some of the wear to the back of the badge.

I remember seeing the badge on Boseleys website. I didn't like the look of it then either.

And now to examine the one attached to a cap. The most glaring thing wrong here to me appears to be the cap itself. QAs wore the same headgear as WRNS officers and WRNS senior rates. This pattern of tricorne hat was in use by the WRNS from 1939-52. I have a couple in my own collection. But your hat just looks wrong. I know that we don't have a proper image of the cap but from what I can see it looks to be more like the pattern worn in the 1950s. The capband, to which the badge is attached, also looks very suspect. It certainly doesn't look like a capband from the period it claims to be.

So my final comments on these badges are that they are deliberate fakes made to deceive collectors. I won't even call them 'reproductions' as you can't have a reproduction of something that never existed. There is no documentation for these badges, no photographic evidence of them being worn and plenty of documentation to verify that the first version of a badge with red laurel wreaths worn by QAs was the QC version. I won't even start on the appearance of the badges themselves!

I'm sorry if I've gone on about this but I'm getting fed-up of criminals ruining our hobby with their fakes and obtaining exorbitant amounts of money fom hard-working collectors for what is essentially rubbish.

And now I'll shut-up!

Pete

Last edited by Guzzman; 15-03-21 at 12:51 PM.
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  #25  
Old 15-03-21, 01:15 PM
tonyboyle tonyboyle is offline
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Thanks for your response Pete, again very helpful. I do look forward to seeing the pictures you do have of QARNNS Sisters in service dress. Thanks Tony
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  #26  
Old 15-03-21, 01:23 PM
tonyboyle tonyboyle is offline
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Apologies not a badge but here are some more photographs of the cap, I believe it is the WW2 style as worn by the WRNS? The white cover is cotton and is removable to reveal the felt underneath
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File Type: jpg C44DCB78-DDAE-40B4-903F-8FF73F7640C5.jpg (74.3 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg 8015D303-B9E8-4298-BE28-850D8B7B5F99.jpg (68.0 KB, 14 views)
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  #27  
Old 15-03-21, 01:53 PM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Hi Tony
Yes, as I say, I have no idea and if I'd have seen that in a shop I most likely would have bought it. It is only now while sort of 'studying' it due to the topic that I even noticed it. When comparing the leaves on the KC badge, they look more like vienna sausages than leaves, with the rounded ends and no real shape to them.
Cheers,
Alex

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyboyle View Post
Here are a few photos for comparison. I would say the quality of the stitching on the wreaths isn’t too different to the blue WRNS officers badges of the same period. They are both cotton and not gilt thread like the male officers badges so will never be as neat.
The third picture shows a QARNNS badge in situ on a mohair band and although it proves nothing it has a weathered tarnished look of some age. Finally the last picture is definitely a repro for comparison.
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  #28  
Old 16-03-21, 07:26 AM
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Hi Tony

Having seen the other pictures of the hat, i agree that it is of the right pattern. The band to which the hat is attached is stil wrong though.

Pete
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  #29  
Old 16-03-21, 10:03 AM
tonyboyle tonyboyle is offline
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Out of interest why is the band wrong? I thought all RN officers cap badges were attached to a black mohair band like this one on the tricorne.
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