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  #16  
Old 27-03-12, 09:00 PM
rhodesianmilitaria rhodesianmilitaria is offline
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Originally Posted by SAS1 View Post
Also, there is a difference between a dealer selling an item as genuine, believing it to be so, and being mistaken, and a dealer knowingly selling something that is a fake or having faked it. It is dangerous to lable someone wrongly when you have no proof that it is anything other than a genuine mistake.
So true and just as wrong by not saying anything if you have the proof. Lots of well known examples and personal correspondence is evidence enough for me.
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  #17  
Old 27-03-12, 11:22 PM
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I rest my case !!
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  #18  
Old 28-03-12, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Eddie Parks View Post
I am sorry Johan but to say all SAS officers' cap were made by one hatter is a fundamental misunderstanding of the British System. An officer is/was free to buy his cap from any one of a number of hatters/tailors. Sure there is an official "Regimental hatter" but beyond that it's a matter of choice. As someone has said the only differences between these caps are the buttons and badge. Hatter sews on buttons, adds badge and lo and behold an RAEC or SAS cap.

On the other hand I am not sure when Hawkes - an army tailor - was taken over by Gieves - an RN tailor - but that would indicate a date.
Eddie
From their website: "The merger of Gieves & Hawkes joins great historical Military and Naval tailors as Gieves, acquired Hawkes & Co in 1974 joining them at the remarkable address of No1 Savile Row."

Rgds,

Thomas.
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  #19  
Old 28-03-12, 10:25 AM
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In my experience somebodys sadly going to be going home with an expensive re-badged item. The caps were Herbert Johnston.

I sold a set of Blues and one of these caps in 2 separate auctions, before every man jack was buying SAS stuff. They went for a pittance. But that's the same as most of my genuine items that have gone for a fraction of the cost I see everyday online.
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  #20  
Old 28-03-12, 12:52 PM
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Sold for AU$104.43.
The one that was sold for what it honestly is, went for AU$245.16.
Some kind of Karma there, I guess.
Pity the poor soul who isn't quite getting what he thought !!!!!!

As was stated above; H.J made all of the hats issued to the SAS and Johan is correct re. cap badge and buttons.
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  #21  
Old 28-03-12, 01:02 PM
rhodesianmilitaria rhodesianmilitaria is offline
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Originally Posted by airtrooper View Post
Sold for AU$104.43.
The one that was sold for what it honestly is, went for AU$245.16.
Some kind of Karma there, I guess.
Pity the poor soul who isn't quite getting what he thought !!!!!!

As was stated above; H.J made all of the hats issued to the SAS and Johan is correct re. cap badge and buttons.
How many times do we see this because buyers don't do their research?
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  #22  
Old 28-03-12, 04:39 PM
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Guys I have no axe to grind in this issue, but as I said you do need to understand the British system.

Officers caps are NOT issued, they are bought by the individual concerned from the hatter of his/her choice. (This may well change but at the time we are talking about that is fact not fantasy.) The caps worn by the SAS and the RAEC are identical until such time as the hatter stitches on the buttons and puts on the badge. Thus to be absolutely sure the cap was first worn by an "ooligan from 'ereford" you would need some method of determining is the sewing is original and if there is any sign of another badge having been fitted.

Eddie
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  #23  
Old 28-03-12, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Eddie Parks View Post
Guys I have no axe to grind in this issue, but as I said you do need to understand the British system.

Officers caps are NOT issued, they are bought by the individual concerned from the hatter of his/her choice. (This may well change but at the time we are talking about that is fact not fantasy.) The caps worn by the SAS and the RAEC are identical until such time as the hatter stitches on the buttons and puts on the badge. Thus to be absolutely sure the cap was first worn by an "ooligan from 'ereford" you would need some method of determining is the sewing is original and if there is any sign of another badge having been fitted.

Eddie
Eddie is 100% correct, on Commissioning, an officer is paid an "outfit allowance" to cover his No 2 Service Dress, Mess Kit, shirts, shoes, rank badges and hats amongst other items. His regiment or Corps will have an appointed "Tailor of Choice" (such as Gieves, Goldings, Goodalls etc) who holds all the regimental uniform and insignia patterns
It is ultimately down to the individual officer as to where he "shops" for his kit, when I was 1st commisioned I shopped wherever the items that I needed were least expensive. No-one can say catergorically that all SAS No1 dress hats were made by Herbert Johnson's , Patey's etc.....
PL
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  #24  
Old 28-03-12, 06:12 PM
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And just to muddy the waters don't forget that even before eBay (and much more so since) there has always been a thriving trade in second hand officers' uniforms. If, heaven forbid, I'd ever needed an SAS No 1 dress cap I'd have called the RAEC depot and bought a used one, ten minutes with a needle and hey-presto a genuine SAS cap - probably at a quarter the price of a new one from Herby J.
Eddie
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  #25  
Old 28-03-12, 06:23 PM
REMEVMBEA1 REMEVMBEA1 is offline
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Not only are officers given a choice of where to purchase their kit but senior ranks have that same choice with mess kit , although there are recommended tailors it's not compulsory and in fact lots of kit is bought overseas from camp tailors (camp as in barracks) because they tend to use better materials and are usually much cheaper and provide a better fit. I in fact bought my REME mess kit in Hong Kong , made by a local tailor for about half the cost , an din my opinion better quality , of that provided by the recommended one in the UK.
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  #26  
Old 28-03-12, 08:21 PM
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Default No. 1 Dress peaked caps

Friends,

I won't argue about the British Army practice of giving an 'outfit allowance' to newly commissioned officers to buy their own uniforms, No. 2 dress, mess dress etc. That is certainly true.

However, I am pretty sure not many newly commissioned officers would actually buy a No. 1 dress as there is so little opportunity to wear it and the expense is considerable.

In the early days of 21 SAS (the Coronation in '53 and the TA Golden Jubiliee in '58) the supplier of No. 1 dress and peaked caps was certainly Herbert Johnson, which can be derived from information in Mars & Minerva. Also, the few early No. 1 dress peaked caps still about that I know of, were made by HJ.

At the Coronation there was a big contingent of 21 SAS and 22 SAS parading, all in No. 1 dress. At the TA Golden Jubilee there was a large turn-out of 21 wearing the No. 1 dress uniform and 'bus drivers' cap.

I am not sure how this situation developed later and if other tailors or hatters also supplied No. 1 peaked caps to SAS officers. That is possible. I do not believe peaked caps are still being worn with No. 1 dress today. I think berets will be worn with it or even side caps in the TA Regiments.

Is anybody in a position to comment on the present day practices around No. 1 dress in the SAS Regiments? I would think there is not much opportunity to wear No. 1 dress.

Please find attached some pictures of the real thing. This cap belongs to Robert Miles, who kindly gave me permission to publish the pictures on the Forum.
Also, there is an excellent article Robert wrote on the subject of SAS dress uniforms for the newsletter of Chute & Dagger UK. If you become a member of C&D UK, you may even receive a copy of that article...

Cheers,

Johan
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg 209.jpg (60.2 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg 210.jpg (37.6 KB, 41 views)

Last edited by johanwiegman; 29-03-12 at 07:30 PM.
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  #27  
Old 28-03-12, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johanwiegman View Post

Is anybody in a position to comment on the present day practices around No. 1 dress in the SAS Regiments? I would think there is not much opportunity to wear No. 1 dress.

Cheers,

Johan
I bet PL (OC14) may know someone who might know
Ivan
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  #28  
Old 29-03-12, 03:33 AM
guest123a
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Parks View Post
And just to muddy the waters don't forget that even before eBay (and much more so since) there has always been a thriving trade in second hand officers' uniforms. If, heaven forbid, I'd ever needed an SAS No 1 dress cap I'd have called the RAEC depot and bought a used one, ten minutes with a needle and hey-presto a genuine SAS cap - probably at a quarter the price of a new one from Herby J.
Eddie
Agreed,
That's the real ''genuine'' British army way of doing things - After 25 years service in that army I think that I know how material regulations (mat regs) work and how officers purchase (or scrounge) clothing.
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  #29  
Old 29-03-12, 03:41 AM
guest123a
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johanwiegman View Post
Friends,

I won't argue about the British Army practice of giving an 'outfit allowance' to newly commissioned officers to buy their own uniforms, No. 2 dress, mess dress etc. That is certainly true.

However, I am pretty sure not many newly commissioned officers would actually buy a No. 1 dress as there is so little opportunity to wear it and the expense is considerable.

In the early days of 21 SAS (the Coronation in '53 and the TA Golden Jubiliee in '58) the supplier of No. 1 dress and peaked caps was certainly Herbert Johnson, which can be derived from information in Mars & Minerva. Also, the few early No. 1 dress peaked caps still about that I know of, were made by HJ.

At the Coronation there was a big contingent of 21 SAS and 22 SAS parading, all in No. 1 dress. At the TA Golden Jubilee there was a large turn-out of 21 wearing the No. 1 dress uniform and 'bus drivers' cap.

I am not sure how this situation developed later and if other tailors also supplied No. 1 peaked caps to SAS officers. That is possible. I do not believe peaked caps are still being worn with No. 1 dress today. I have an idea berets will be worn with it or even side caps in the TA Regiments.

Nowadays there may be more military tailors able to supply a bespoke No. 1 dress SAS uniform, although my bet is, it is still Herbert Johnson who is the regular tailor and hatter to the SAS Regiments.

I know for a fact HJ can still supply the No. 1 peaked cap today (without the silver and gilt badge) and SAS dark blue and pale blue side caps can be made to order, normally with a bullion embroidered Winged Dagger badge.

Is anybody in a position to comment on the present day practices around No. 1 dress in the SAS Regiments? I would think there is not much opportunity to wear No. 1 dress.

Please find attached some pictures of the real thing. This cap belongs to Robert Miles, who kindly gave me permission to publish the pictures on the Forum.
Also, there is an excellent article Robert wrote on the subject of SAS dress uniforms for the newsletter of Chute & Dagger UK. If you become a member of C&D UK, you may even receive a copy of that article...

Cheers,

Johan
I'm afraid you still seem to miss the point of how the British Army system works which is understandable as someone looking in so dont take at face value whats in the advertisment pages of Regimental journals as evidence as it's not reality - Just re-read all the posts above as they well illustrate the true reality of the British system, I will mention it again I have 25 years experince of this from within and not just looking in.
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  #30  
Old 29-03-12, 05:56 AM
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airtrooper airtrooper is offline
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Without knocking anyone's service time or record;
I think we all understand and agree with the means by which officers obtain their dress clothing & equipment.

It is known by several SAS insignia collectors that this particular company supplied the regiment with a certain number of dress hats and when.

Yes, it is feasible that a member of the regt went elsewhere to purchase one outside of the readily obtainable supply but I doubt it. It's not a very large unit, after all.

I for one would not, under the circumstances, trust this particular hat to be correct.
I assume by the lack of bids that many others felt likewise !
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