Tyneside Scottish

[rmarsden]

1st Bn.The Tyneside Scottish,The Black Watch (R.H.R.) 1939-44.
Small die variations: no1 has a long portcullis and thin flag.no2 a short
portcullis and a wider flag.no3 has the wider flag but due to heavy silver plating
I cant make out the portcullis.I wonder if they made new dies for the WW2
issue?

Ron

[Alan O]

Ron,

Without finding the Sealed patterns in the ACD records (and they have probably been sold off by now) it is difficult to tell what the makers were told to produce. It is quite possible that the same maker was used agin in 1937 but the chances of the order going to the same maker, them having kept the old dies and the dies being is a usable condition are less so.

The other thing to bear in mind that the original badges made in 1915 were not made for the WD, who I am led to believe did not take over providing the uniform bagdes for the TF and Pals until later on. This is why so many TF badges have sealed pattern dates of 1916 as this is when the 'official' sealed pattern was set down as a record. Earlier badges were made to order and this is why you find examples with large pins on the back rather than lugs. Again it is likely that the ones made in 1915 for the TF and the ones made later for the WD were made by different firms and hence slightly different dies.

The whole Tyneside Scottish piece is again complicated by the fact that they had 4 badge designs and no one refernce book agrees on which ones of the latter 3 were worn when. Unfortunately the Tyneside Scottish badges have been widely faked and the long portcullis ones are the design most seen being sold by the usual fraudsters on ebay.

Short answer - yes I think they probably did have new dies made for WW2.
Alan

[Malcolm Davey]

Spencer i do not like this badge for the following reasons
1, the lion looks comical,strange head and thin arms.
2, the portcullis is all the way down when is should be half way.
3, i would like to see this badge with a pin fixing like this one.
IMO it's a restrike.

Malc

[Spencer]

Thanks .
Have all of these badge got pin fixings ?

[Malcolm Davey]

Spencer
I have only seen this the 3rd pattern and the 4th pattern with this type of fixing, i do not know about the 1st and 2nd patterns.

Malc

[Alan O]

The first pattern was lugged but many were pinned as sweetheart badges. The second (both feet on tower as shown by Joachim) are found with pins as well. WW2 variants were supplied by the WD and lugged.

Alan

[Malcolm Davey]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

The first pattern was lugged but many were pinned as sweetheart badges. The second (both feet on tower as shown by Joachim) are found with pins as well. WW2 variants were supplied by the WD and lugged.

Alan

Alan spot on it is the 2nd pattern shown by me, mis-read Bloomers.

Malc

[wardog]

I hope this one is OK.
Tyneside 002.jpgTyneside 001.jpg

[54Bty]

Here is one in white metal.

Pattern number 11471, Clothing catalogue number CB1380, sealed on the 19th of April 1940 as Badges Tam O'Shanter for 670th Light Anti Aircraft Regiment (R.A.) (Tyneside Scottish (B.W.) Highland Regiment).

[Alan O]

Paul,

Unlike many Tyneside badges, there was only one short period of wear at the nd of 1914/start of 1915 so there were only a relatively few made. As far as I am aware they were all ordered privately by the Bn associations from one supplier therefore there was probably only one die. The third/fourth patterns were re-used in WW2 and so new dies with minor changes would be expected.

My point is that unfortunately your badge does not match the design in either the books or one sold by Bosleys. Sorry. I have a high quality photo of one sold by Bosleys that I cannot post as it is copyright but can email to you if you PM me your email address.

There are significant differences in the design that makes me think that someone has bought one of the modern repros and then had it pinned to decieve the buyer. A large number of the originals had the same done to them - whether this was becasue the original lugs were weak or for sweetheart brach conversions, I am not sure about.

Alan

[wardog]

Thanks Allan. I'll PM you for the info. you have. I bought the badge from John Gaylor in the 1990's.

[Alan O]

This one I can post and I can say with certainty that it is an out and out fake.

Alan

[wardog]

Yes, mine is more like this and I've had it 10-15 years.

[Alan O]

I can get as many of the ones shown above from ebay at less than £10 each. That is why I think some one has made a new die and is now knocking them out in quantity.

They also come in 'economy' brass. Total fantasy items.

Alan

[alan g]

thought i would post my tyneside scottish hallmarked badges one marked 1914 the other1915