Lovat's Scouts

[2747andy]

Malcolm, looks as though it may be OK, but is missing the "Strap End".

Andy

[mjw]

Hello Andy,

Thanks for that – I would not have known! It must have been cut off for some reason?

Kind regards, Malcolm.

[dubaiguy]

Gents
Attached is an image of my 5 Lovat Scout badges. I think I've got them in the right chronological order (starting from the top down), but I've got myself somewhat confused with the whole Lovat and Lovat's thing:

So going here is where my humble effort has got so far:
Top: IY 1903 - 08 (pretty certain on this one)
Middle Left: Loops ?
Middle Right: Slider, post 1922
Bottom Left: Large, 1900 - 02 or post 1922 (more likely post 1922)
Bottom Right: Large?


If anyone can put me right I would be very grateful.

Mark

[Wmr-RHB]

I see tthat none of the gurus tried to answer you.

I am not a guru, but can share with you what John Gaylor says about the Lovat scouts in his book:


When he mentions Plate 35, there is the same as your lower left one.
When he mentions Plate 31, there is the same as your lower right one.
When he mentions the IY version, he says "solid:, but your's is voided (I have seen a solid one in an album on this forum).
When he mentions Plate 31 for the second time, there is smaller one with an Y like your two middele ones (I can not compare sizes).

I hope this helps. Feel free to ask if something is unclear, but note that I am only the messenger and do tell what I find in "Millitary Badge Collecting revised edition".

[Peter Brydon]

Dont know if this is of any help,it is from " The Uniforms of the British Yeomanry Force " No 8- Lovat Scouts and Scottish Horse by Barlow and Smith. The badges are from the collection of Keith Hook.

P.B.

[dubaiguy]

Henk & Peter
Thank you for your replies.

From both your sources I think I have been able to deduce the dates. Interestingly Gaylor and Barlow & Smith differ on the IY marked badge. Barlow & Smith attribute the voided badge to the slouch hat (attached to the black plume) and the non voided (or solid) to being a collar. Gaylor in contrast indicates that the solid is a cap badge. I think I'm going to go with Barlow & Smith (see footnote below).

So here is what I have come up with from your posts:

Top: OR slouch hat badge worn attached to the black plume 1903-1908
Middle Left: OR (lost possessive) post 1922
Middle Right: OR (lost possessive) post 1922 Field Service Cap
Bottom Left: OR Balmoral hat badge 1901-1903, however taken into use again post 1922 (I believe mine will be post 1922)
Bottom Right: OR 1903-1922

As a footnote, A couple of years ago, The Military Historical Society provided a small booklet called The Uniforms of The Imperial Yeomanry 1901-1908 by Knight & Smith. Line drawings show both the Balmoral and voided slouch hat badge on their respective hats along with the black plume. However the collar badge appears voided. In contrast again, two period photos show the slouch hat being worn and it looks to me (though hard to tell) that the collars are solid.

All the best
Mark

[Wmr-RHB]

Glad you are satisfied.

I for myself read Gaylor's text thrice and then decided not to jump to any conclusions, but to give you the complete text. From what I read:
. fom it's creation in 1900 to 1903 the "JE SUIS PREST".
. from 1903 - 1922 the "LOVAT'S SCOUTS".
. from 1922 - "JE SUIS PREST".
Now imho that covers the whole history. But then he starts with two other badges:
. "LOVAT SCOUTS IY" as the Imperial Yeomanry.
. "LOVAT SCOUT Y" as successor.
Which means before and after 1908.

Thus two lines parallel in time?
.

[davec2]

Hi Mark,

Long time no speak so I hope this finds you well ?

Quote [ As a footnote, A couple of years ago, The Military Historical Society provided a small booklet called The Uniforms of The Imperial Yeomanry 1901-1908 by Knight & Smith. Line drawings show both the Balmoral and voided slouch hat badge on their respective hats along with the black plume. However the collar badge appears voided. In contrast again, two period photos show the slouch hat being worn and it looks to me (though hard to tell) that the collars are solid. ] unquote.

I have three badges at the moment, all deemed to be genuine, I have used Bloomers for my reference on these and for the unvoided version, Gaylor, there were several approx 1 inch dia badges and they are desribed as Field Service Cap badges.

Being Yeomanry, my Churchill's collar badge book is not much use but I would still venture an opinion that the unvoided version is also a cap badge, I am not much good at the dates, I have enough trouble worrying about when our Anniversary is due, let alone what happened 100 years ago, blimey, it's in a couple of days ?????

There you go mate, my tuppence worth.

Take care.

Dave.

[dubaiguy]

Thanks Henk I must have had a 'senior moment' when I wrote the above post as I had transposed the dates wrongly from my notes. That'll teach me to write posts late at night. I have now edited my post and it matches the dates in yours, except I have used 1901 as the start date of the Imperial Yeomanry.



I believe the reason for the two types of cap badge in existence at the same time is down to the headgear worn by the Lovat Scouts. The smaller badge was in the slouch hat and the larger w/m badge in the Balmoral bonnet.



I hope I am not infringing copyright, but I attach a colour plate from the booklet I mentioned earlier that shows the different type of badge in their respective hats. I would recommend this booklet, which is available from the MHS, for anyone interested in the Imperial Yeomanry as it has a wealth of photos and colour plates.



Hi Dave, yes long time. Apologies I have been meaning to send a pm, but I'm not a great emailer and always seem to be travelling to some ‘orrible’ country with limited communication, (illustrated by the fact I've been on the forum for several years and made only 176 posts). I have been reading all your interesting comments though!



I could in no way argue that the solid badge is just a collar and not a cap, but it is interesting that the authors of Henk's and Peter's books differ on opinion.



I'm going to keep my eye out for a solid one; and next time I'm in Scotland try to get a Lovat tartan sample from a kilt maker, it will look good behind the IY badge as shown in the plate. And just to ramble on a bit more – the tartan looks to be Clan Fraser of Lovat, but the green one with a red line through it. Does anyone have any thoughts about the tartan shown on the slouch hat?



Thanks

Mark

[Wmr-RHB]

I guess you are right about the different sizes in the different types of headdress. But it is not only different sizes, but also different badges at the same time. I guess we have to live with that.

Nice picture BTW, must be a very informative book.

[Peter Brydon]

Mark,

If you have an interest in The Lovat Scouts the Barlow and Smith book is well worth getting. You used to be able to pick up copies for a couple of pounds.

Bob ( R.J. ) Smith is also the co author of the MHS book mentioned.

P.B.

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

This badge in A/A was still official issue as at 12th August 2009.

Looks like it was authorised to the Lovat Scouts Company of 2/51 Highland (V).

Regards

Chris

[Peter Brydon]

Just found some correspondence with Bob Smith going back to 1974,at that time he said that his collection of old yeomanry photos prior to WW1 was about 4000.

Thats dedication for you.

P.B.

Cant help with the tartan on the slouch hat but Pipers wore Hunting Fraser tartan on their kilts,plaids,pipe bags and hose. Officers wore the same on their trews in Mess Dress.

[dubaiguy]

Thanks again all. Peter I'm trying to get a copy of Barlow and Smith as we speak. I had a sneaking suspicion it was the same Smith.

I feign complete ignorance of tartans as I'm the only sassanach in a family of tartan wearing in-laws. I usually get a deserved slap when I tell them Ancient, Hunting and Gathering is all makey-up Victorian twadle. Ouch!

Thanks
Mark

[Tony Barnes]

Can anyone please send me a thumbnail image of the cap badge worn by the Lovat Scouts in the 1940s? (I believe the small WW2 Museum on the Faroes where the regt served 1940 - 42 has an incorrect cap badge in its display)

In addition, does anyone know what the abbreviation PAD stands for? I believe it has a connection with anti -gas training.

Many thanks.