Pagri patch colours of the 60th Division

[cymro]

Here's one to the 16th London on a Wolseley helmet in my collection.

[Drew]

Wow! Thank you very much indeed for posting this from your collection. It must be a very rare item indeed. What a remarkable example.

Many thanks,

Chris

[orasot]

Originally Posted by cymro

Here's one to the 16th London on a Wolseley helmet in my collection.

That is indeed a lovely thing, thank you. Is it named by any chance? Here’s a few being worn,
Wilf

[cymro]

Yes it is named - a CSM Morgan from recollection. I'll dig it out tonight.

[Drew]

Thanks for adding that photo, Wilf. Another great addition to the thread. Also another very rare item, I should think.
Much appreciated,
Chris

[Mike_H]

Drew,
Re the 2/14th and 2/15th.

I have found no info about the 2/14th officers having a badge on the back of their tunics and Robson's 1960 book, 'The Uniform of the London Scottish 1859-1919' makes no mention of one.

The 2/15th officers wore a 2" diameter Tudor rose in blue and silver grey on the back of the tunic from June 1916 when they went to France but this was discontinued when the battalion went to Salonika in November 1916. (Info from the IWM 1919 uniform questionnaires in the IWM library).

This doesn't get a mention in Hibberd and Hobbs because that deals with the badges in use in Autumn 1917.

Mike

[Drew]

Hello Mike,

Thank you so much for sharing this wonderfully interesting information here. That is very good of you.

It is funny because I had wondered about whether the other battalions in the 179th Bde also wore a rose at any point, and I had been pondering a 'speculative' post about it for a few days. The evidence you found about the 2/15th Bn is therefore most interesting. I take on board your point about the London Scottish though.

It may be stating the obvious, but it seems like there is some sort of a nod towards regimental history and tradition in the choice of colours for these patches (though there are inconsistencies). This notion, coupled with the colour of the rose for the Kensingtons, leads me to wonder whether they wore a grey pagri patch. I don't think it is unprecedented to use this colour, and after all, the 2/13th Bn did have seniority in the 'grey brigade'.
One thing I cannot get my head around though, is that if this were so, why didn't the London Scottish get assigned blue. Is the yellow meant to represent the Royal flag of Scotland or is it merely a caprice of the CO? Perhaps it is that as they were the "only battalion in Allenby's Army with a metal badge on the sun helmet", there was some deference given to the Civil Service Rifles on this score.

Using the same logic, one wonders if the 2/22nd and 2/24th Bns had red and blue pagri patches, though the 2/23rd Bn is also a contender for red.

All complete speculation, I know, but I think it is interesting to consider.

Many thanks again for the information.

Chris

[orasot]

Originally Posted by cymro

Yes it is named - a CSM Morgan from recollection. I'll dig it out tonight.

CSM Albert Edward Morgan, here's a pic of the man himself for you,
cheers.

[Drew]

Great stuff, Wilf. Very nice to see the man himself.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by orasot

CSM Albert Edward Morgan, here's a pic of the man himself for you,
cheers.

Originally Posted by Drew

Great stuff, Wilf. Very nice to see the man himself.

How does he do it?! The forum's very own David Nixon... MAGIC!

[cymro]

I just saw this post - marvellous work - wonderful to see the man's face!

[KLR]

"This doesn't get a mention in Hibberd and Hobbs because that deals with the badges in use in Autumn 1917."

Please expand the reference - Hibberd and Hobbs.

thanks

[Mike_H]

Should have read Hibberd and Gibbs! - Refers to the Military Historical Society booklet " Infantry Divisions Identification Schemes 1917" which the Society published in 2016

M

[KLR]

Thanks, i should have a copy somewhere.

[talos]

Hi Chris,
The 2/13 Bn wore a red diamond with two inch sides worn on back a quarter of an inch below the collar. Unsure though if it was also worn on the pagri.
Regards,
Talos