WW1- Rifle Bde and Post Office Rifles cap badge differences

[Drew]

Hello,

Please could anyone help with the following query:

Is it possible to tell the difference between a Rifle Brigade and an 8th London cap badge in old photographs- In other words, are there any telltale differences?

For example, I think the Rifle Brigade cap badge had more battle honours, but a quick google image search seems to me to show that this was not always the case. Not being very knowledgeable about such things, I thought I'd ask.

My reason for asking is that I have just got a postcard labelled as "possibly 13th Rifle Brigade", but I wondered if another possibility wasn't the 8th London Rgt, Post Office Rifles, in 1918. See attached.

Many thanks in advance,

Chris

[Alan O]

Chris

The cap badge could be either, All is not lost. He has black buttons so it likely to be RB.

What you need to do is identify the Divisional patch on the sleeve, The photo is circa 1918 so you will be able to see whether the PO Rifles were in that Div or not in 1918 and that will prove it.

[Hoot]

Definitely Rifle Brigade. On the RB badge the ends of the wreath are closer to the crown and much higher than the base of the crown. On the POR badge the ends of the wreath are well away from the crown and lower down.

[Alan O]

side by side

[Drew]

Wow! That's fantastic. Thanks very much gentlemen. What a subtle difference.

Many thanks,

Chris

[Drew]

Best fit based on the traingle patch and using 'Infantry Divisions, Identification Schemes, 1917', Hibberd & Gibbs, seems to be the 12th or 13th Rifle Brigade. However, in each case a triangle should also come with bars / a company colour above or below. I don't doubt that he is wearing a Rifle Brigade cap badge, but the 8th P.O.R., in 1918, fits with the triangle patch better (if I am correct in thinking that the 8th Londons wore this at that time).

Another possibility is that the 60th MG Coy and the 60th TM Battery in the same Bde as the 12th RB wore the triangle on its own. Would a man posted to the 60th MG Coy, for example, still have his original cap badge or would he change to an MG Corps one?

Cheers,


Chris

[Alan O]

Chris

The 8th Londons did indeed wear the POR badge in 1918 - actually up to amalgamation in 1920.

MG Coy personnel should have worn the MG badge even if transferees. Always a 'should' mind you.

Alan

[Drew]

Thanks very much, Alan. That's very helpful. I think I was wondering if he had been transfered to the MG Corps, but still had his RB badge when the photo was taken. It seems that's a possibility, but this one will have to remain a mystery for now.

Many thanks,

Chris

[MBrockway]

Originally Posted by Drew

Best fit based on the traingle patch and using 'Infantry Divisions, Identification Schemes, 1917', Hibberd & Gibbs, seems to be the 12th or 13th Rifle Brigade. However, in each case a triangle should also come with bars / a company colour above or below. I don't doubt that he is wearing a Rifle Brigade cap badge, but the 8th P.O.R., in 1918, fits with the triangle patch better (if I am correct in thinking that the 8th Londons wore this at that time).

Another possibility is that the 60th MG Coy and the 60th TM Battery in the same Bde as the 12th RB wore the triangle on its own. Would a man posted to the 60th MG Coy, for example, still have his original cap badge or would he change to an MG Corps one?

Cheers,


Chris

Chris,
Triangle with no bars was also used by 60 Bde HQ.

Could he be an RB signaller attached to Bde HQ? Those look like crossed flags on his cuff.

If you have a name, I'm sure Andy could well help.

Definitely RB by the way.

12/RB wore the triangle with four bars underneath and were the only RB battalion in 60 Bde (= triangle). 13/RB were not in 20th (Light) Division, but in 37th Division and wore the 37th's horseshoe.

Cheers,
Mark

[Toby Purcell]

I agree with Mark, a Brigade HQ (thus no bars) Signaller is very likely. Crossed flags on or above arm band.

[Drew]

That is a great spot, Mark. Thank you very much. I did not think it could be narrowed down that much so I am very pleased. I know we can never be 100% certain with this type of thing, but given all the different insignia clues, I really think you must be correct with this. Toby, thanks too. Apologies, I am afraid I have no name.

Close-up attached. Also, I now wonder if that is a metal "RB" on his epaulette? I had thought it looked a bit 'flat', but you never know.

Many thanks,

Chris

[Drew]

There is an Arthur Mitchell, MSM, who was Rifle Brigade attached 60th Inf. Bde. He ended up as an officer in the RAF. I do not think it is necessarily the same man as in my photograph, but I wonder if Mitchell was attached at the same time as this chap. It might be worth looking into.

Chris