Good Conduct Chevrons - RFC/RNAS

[Jelly Terror]

Did the RAF's two antecedent units wear 'good conduct' chevrons?

RAF.jpg

With thanks,

JT

[Toby Purcell]

As a de facto Army unit the Royal Flying Corps did so. I don’t know about the RNAS.

[Frank Kelley]

Looking at the uniforms, the group in the photograph are members of the RAF, circa 1920's.

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Did the RAF's two antecedent units wear 'good conduct' chevrons?

Attachment 190671

With thanks,

JT

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Looking at the uniforms, the group in the photograph are members of the RAF, circa 1920's.

Oops! Could've made that a bit clearer at the outset actually, couldn't I?

[Frank Kelley]

Indeed, but, notwithstanding, both members of the RNAS and RFC, who were so entitled, certainly did wear good conduct chevrons.

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Oops! Could've made that a bit clearer at the outset actually, couldn't I?

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Did the RAF's two antecedent units wear 'good conduct' chevrons?

Attachment 190671

With thanks,

JT

With its antecedents of the Royal Engineers and the Royal Flying Corps, both of them army formations, it seems inevitable that long-serving soldiers who made the full transition to the Royal Air Force in 1918 would have brought with them some Good Conduct badges. The formal RAF introduction was by Air Ministry Order 720 of 12th August 1920, with up to three available. The badges were to be worn in the same manner as the army, but it was not until two years later that they were confined to ranks below substantive corporal. No less a character than TE Lawrence, under the pseudonym of Aircraftsman TE Shaw qualified for his first badge 12th March 1925, and his second on 12th March 1931.
King’s Regulations and Air Council Instructions 1940 gave the periods as three, eight and thirteen years [same as RN, whereas RM followed army criteria], and the awards were still being made through the Second World War. My father wore one, for example.

[Frank Kelley]

I think you will find that the two "antecedents" of the Royal Air Force were actually the Royal Naval Air Service and the Royal Flying Corps.
A man could enlist into the RFC directly without having had any prior service in the Army.

Originally Posted by grumpy

With its antecedents of the Royal Engineers and the Royal Flying Corps, both of them army formations, it seems inevitable that long-serving soldiers who made the full transition to the Royal Air Force in 1918 would have brought with them some Good Conduct badges. The formal RAF introduction was by Air Ministry Order 720 of 12th August 1920, with up to three available. The badges were to be worn in the same manner as the army, but it was not until two years later that they were confined to ranks below substantive corporal. No less a character than TE Lawrence, under the pseudonym of Aircraftsman TE Shaw qualified for his first badge 12th March 1925, and his second on 12th March 1931.
King’s Regulations and Air Council Instructions 1940 gave the periods as three, eight and thirteen years [same as RN, whereas RM followed army criteria], and the awards were still being made through the Second World War. My father wore one, for example.

[grumpy]

and there was me thinking the Royal Flying Corps was part of the army, just like it says in the Army List and the Pay Warrant!
The antecedents of the RFC were various balloon and kite iterations of the Royal Engineers.
All of whom qualified under army rules for GC badges below corporal [or equivalent] full rank.

I would be interested to have chapter and verse of RNAS wearing GC badges other than under the RN regulations. It seems intrinsically unlikely. RN Division just possibly?

After 1907 the army badges ceased to carry extra pay [excepting men with reserved rights], and thus diverged from the RN system which continued to pay. The other obvious differences army/RN were position of wear, and the rank cut-offs.

[Frank Kelley]

The men in the photograph shown in the original post are very clearly members of the RAF and not the RFC, are you suggesting that the RAF was not created by the merger of RNAS and RFC?
A man need not have served in the RE, RFC or RNAS prior to joining the RAF to wear those chevrons.
Members of the RNAS, who were so entitled, did wear chevrons below any Rating and Qualification badge they were entitled to as shown in AdWO in ADM182.

Originally Posted by grumpy

and there was me thinking the Royal Flying Corps was part of the army, just like it says in the Army List and the Pay Warrant!
The antecedents of the RFC were various balloon and kite iterations of the Royal Engineers.
All of whom qualified under army rules for GC badges below corporal [or equivalent] full rank.

I would be interested to have chapter and verse of RNAS wearing GC badges other than under the RN regulations. It seems intrinsically unlikely. RN Division just possibly?

After 1907 the army badges ceased to carry extra pay [excepting men with reserved rights], and thus diverged from the RN system which continued to pay. The other obvious differences army/RN were position of wear, and the rank cut-offs.

[grumpy]

The men in the photograph shown in the original post are very clearly members of the RAF and not the RFC, are you suggesting that the RAF was not created by the merger of RNAS and RFC? Of course not, what makes you think that?

A man need not have served in the RE, RFC or RNAS prior to joining the RAF to wear those chevrons. I did not suggest that, surely?

Members of the RNAS, who were so entitled, did wear chevrons below any Rating and Qualification badge they were entitled to as shown in AdWO in ADM182. As I do not have access to the reference, could you scan or precis it please? Am I correct in believing that these are RN badges under the Admiralty rules?

[Jelly Terror]

Many thanks for your responses.

Regards to all,

JT

[grumpy]

Thank you.
I am still curious about AdWO in ADM182.

[Frank Kelley]

Although the men in the photograph are wearing RAF uniforms, unless you actually know their actual identities, it is simply not possible to comment on any prior service.
Regarding the RNAS, their Good Conduct badges were worn below any Rate and Qualification badge a particular man was entitled to, upon the left sleeve as per Admiralty orders.
They took form of inverted lace chevrons, with the first being awarded for three years service, the second for five years and the third for thirteen years.
They are normally very clearly shown for individual men in the Register of Service in ADM188.
On the 31st of March 1918, the final entries were made for those men before they were transferred to the RAF.

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Many thanks for your responses.

Regards to all,

JT

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Although the men in the photograph are wearing RAF uniforms, unless you actually know their actual identities, it is simply not possible to comment on any prior service.
Regarding the RNAS, their Good Conduct badges were worn below any Rate and Qualification badge a particular man was entitled to, upon the left sleeve as per Admiralty orders.
They took form of inverted lace chevrons, with the first being awarded for three years service, the second for five years and the third for thirteen years.
They are normally very clearly shown for individual men in the Register of Service in ADM188.
On the 31st of March 1918, the final entries were made for those men before they were transferred to the RAF.

Thank you very much
[I note that, like me, you are a purist when it comes to chevrons "inverted". Its a very unfashionable stance, because normally these days used for LCpl Cpl Sgt point down ..... I have even seen that on sealed patterns. Indeed]