Royal Norfolks 'Fantasy' Badge - Myth Dispelled?

When the ‘Royal’ title was conferred upon The Norfolk Regiment in 1935 (its 250th anniversary) changes to insignia became necessary in order to bring existing patterns up to date.

The pattern shown here...

OSD.jpg

...has been the subject of past forum debate, with some schools of thought considering it to be a ‘fantasy item‘, and with others asserting its rightful place among the badges of The Norfolk Regiment.

Between these two opposing factions are the badge-nostics, the chin-rubbers and head-scratchers, all proffering their own theories as to the characteristics and constituent metal/s this badge should or should not possess.

With the aid of the photograph below, from The Royal Norfolk Regiment Museum...

Officer & NCO.jpg

...it has been possible to provide pictorial evidence that the badge was infact worn by officers and NCOs [edit - correction: WOs], but its constituent metals have continued to spark debate and divide opinion.

In this 1936 letter to Buckingham Palace...

Letter.jpg

...the War Office submitted new badge, button and collar badge designs for approval by the King, together with examples of insignia patterns which were still in use before the introduction of the new badges.

This photo...

Card.jpg

...of a section of one of the actual cards sent in that letter to Buckingham Palace, held at the NA, clearly shows the badge (which has lugs) and in my opinion, goes a long way to settling the argument once and for all.

Comments welcomed, gents.

Peter

[2747andy]

Peter,
the "Fantasy Item" many refer to is the bi-metal pattern of the badge shown (Britannia upon Royal Norfolk Plinth) which is found with both lugs and slider. The badge also appears in Gilding metal and all white metal, all of which IMO are either "Fantasy" or "Fake".

It is, I'm sure an "Officers" only pattern badge as the pattern card in you post supports and the only badges which I've ever come across which I feel are genuine, are the OSD pattern in Bronze with blades for the SD cap and a Gilt pattern (as shown) with lugs (no reason why there could not be one with blades as well) for the Coloured Forage Cap?

The photo shows both an Officer and a Warrant Officer (Probably the RSM). NCO rank stops at CSgt/SSgt. It was (is) common practice for WO1s to wear Officer's Insignia, so the photo does not solve the puzzle IMO. The badge on the card is a Gilt officers pattern which also came in an OSD finish as stated in brackets!

Back to square one methinks but nice images anyway!

Andy

Andy,

The badge did indeed also come in OSD finish, as you rightly state, hence the reason I posted an example in my first image.

The main thrust of my point here wasn't particularly to focus on who wore the badge (though this is certainly part of the debate) but more to establish the badge's authenticity and to hopefully shed more light on its constituent metals, which I feel has been successfully achieved here.

One of the main points of debate about this badge has been the doubt over the authenticity of the bi-metal version, commonly seen doing the rounds, and so hopefully it can now be asserted with a great deal more confidence that the B/M version has no official place amongst the badges of the Regiment.

What are you doing up so late (or so early) anyway?

Regards,

Peter

[2747andy]

Peter,
this will teach me to add to threads whilst still half asleep as we both seem to be pointing to the same "Fact",... which is the ORs patterns (metals) of this badge are WRONG!

I just got up for some refreshment and now off back to sleep, although the "Dawn Chorus" has just started in the garden!

Best regards

Andy

[Alan O]

I have always thought that this was a genuine Officers' pattern badge that has been faked as a slidered ORs' design. It is the latter that is fantasy. Interesting photo if only because the subaltern has cuff ranks which were more characteristic of WW1 rather than 1935.

[Sonofacqms]

I agree in all of Andy's thoughts, this badge if original is either in OSD bonze or gold gilt with loops or blades, the bi-metal slidered other ranks is IMO a fantasy badge which crops up on a regular basis to catch out the unwary.

If it was genuine, who wore it and when was it worn?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I have always thought that this was a genuine Officers' pattern badge that has been faked as a slidered ORs' design. It is the latter that is fantasy. Interesting photo if only because the subaltern has cuff ranks which were more characteristic of WW1 rather than 1935.

All three figures have Great War ribbons and the escort to the colour behind the subaltern and RSM (definitely RSM), has the previous pattern of bi-metal cap badge. One can only assume that this photo was taken soon after the war, perhaps at the first Armistice Parade (or was it a Victory thanksgiving parade, I am not sure which), when all regimental colours representative of fighting units were presented ('trooped') in a very long procession through Whitehall and past Horse Guards.

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

... the bi-metal slidered other ranks is IMO a fantasy badge which crops up on a regular basis to catch out the unwary.

If it was genuine, who wore it and when was it worn?

Precisely. I agree entirely here - the B/M pattern is the one to avoid, and as you rightly say: who would have worn it, and when???


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Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

All three figures have Great War ribbons and the escort to the colour behind the subaltern and RSM (definitely RSM), has the previous pattern of bi-metal cap badge. One can only assume that this photo was taken soon after the war, perhaps at the first Armistice Parade (or was it a Victory thanksgiving parade, I am not sure which), when all regimental colours representative of fighting units were presented in a very long procession through Whitehall and past Horse Guards.

Quite a few 'overseas service stripes' on that right cuff too, Toby. I can make out five, the one at the very bottom being darker and therefore more difficult to see. I believe this to be red in colour indicating overseas service before 31st December 1914.

Some good points here chaps... thanks for your input.

Peter.

[mooke07]

Congratulations and thanks to all participants for an objective and highly informative post. The value of such research to members is terrific.

Finding photographic and other documentary evidence is a rewarding challenge.

Cheers Dean.

Originally Posted by mooke07

Congratulations and thanks to all participants for an objective and highly informative post. The value of such research to members is terrific.

Finding photographic and other documentary evidence is a rewarding challenge.

Cheers Dean.

Thanks, Dean. Nice of you to say so, mate.

Not sure if you saw THIS thread from a couple of days ago.

Cheers,

Peter.

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi Peter

Yes you really must be congratulated on all your work here – it’s great to see the photographic evidence used alongside documentary proof, etc. I have to agree with Dean, in that this kind of research is extremely valuable when it comes to confirming, or in this case disproving, if a particular badge was ever worn. It’s postings like this that make the Badge Forum such a valuable resource for informing the wider badge collecting community on such matters. Many thanks for sharing things with us, and keep up the good work.

Best regards

Martin

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

Hi Peter

Yes you really must be congratulated on all your work here – it’s great to see the photographic evidence used alongside documentary proof, etc. I have to agree with Dean, in that this kind of research is extremely valuable when it comes to confirming, or in this case disproving, if a particular badge was ever worn. It’s postings like this that make the Badge Forum such a valuable resource for informing the wider badge collecting community on such matters. Many thanks for sharing things with us, and keep up the good work.

Best regards

Martin

That's very decent of you, Martin, thanks very much for your kind words.

It is my pleasure to be able to share such findings; I only wish I had more time to devote to research. As we mentioned in a previous thread; having to pay the bills really cuts into your day.

Peter.

[norfolk regt man]

hi peter, i have in my small collection this badge and a pair of collars of the same design aswell as one that is only 15mm tall.

[cbuehler]

I am a bit confused here. The correct badge for officers caps has always been this pattern of badge since the introduction of OSD. I have a pre ww1 OSD cap (made in Norwich) with a bronze badge of this type, not the wreathed OR's type.
Additionally, the photo of the 2nd Lt. and RSM could not possibly be from 1935, but must be much earlier. As mentioned, an RSM wore officer pattern badges and other officer type accessories. Also, the use of cuff rank did survive the war by a few years in some unusual cases, but certainly would not have been allowed by this late date.

CB

CB,

Thanks for this.

Firstly, I'm not sure that anybody has suggested that the photo is specifically from 1935... I haven't yet re-read over the entire thread so please excuse me if I have made a mistake with this.

I inserted the photo of the officer and WO as evidence of the badge actually in use, and not as a reference to latest-date-worn, if you see what I mean.

Secondly, it is mainly the constituent metals of the badge which are being called into question here, though other aspects of its authenticity are unavoidably wrapped up in the debate.

It has been argued that the b/m version is the 'fantasy' item, and I hope this thread goes some way to substantiating this.

I would very much like to see a picture of your badge if possible, especially the 'Norwich' mark.

Thanks again,

Peter.