Delville wood Anniversary

[Traist]

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi Frank,

I think everyone has a liking for the Scottish Regiments; I do also have Scottish blood on my Mother's side.
I can't argue with Colin Owen & Dudley and it's very difficult to research who wore what badge. Only the collars and some titles were distinctive as far as I'm aware. It is the 48mm badge BTW.

kind regards, Iain

Hi Iain, if you look at some of the group photos, you will see different sizes of the "universal" badge worn by members of the same unit. I don't know it as a fact, but suspect that maybe different intakes had different sizes(coming from different manufacturers). Rather than the different units having different sizes. Regards Andrew

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Andrew,
No, I did not, I just went and grabbed a few bits for a picture, in about, I suppose the last twenty years or so, I have only ever had three brass numerals actually in groups with the shoulder title/titles, all from South Africa and always 20-22 mm from top to bottom, I do have a few more though and all are much the same, again all found in South Africa.
The badges, collars, titles and buttons etc worn by the brigade were made here by a number of manufacturers, Gaunt, Firmin, Goldsmiths, Dowler's, Lillico's, Hobson's etc
Kind regards Frank

Originally Posted by Traist

Very nice Frank. Did you get the 4 with the rest? I would like to know what the size is, as I have a few numbers, but have never been sure if the fitted with these units or not. Regards Andrew

[iaindh]

Hi Frank,

very, very nice! Those titles are quite rare and when they come up, create a lot of interest!
The tartan is Murray of Atholl which is the Transvaal Scottish and the collars CapeTown Highlanders; the 2 regiments formed the nucleus of 4 SAI.
Thanks for sharing

regards, Iain

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Here you are Iain!

[iaindh]

Hi Andrew,

you're quite right, I'm sure it was whatever was available, it seems to be the case when SA mobilised. It also explains why its so difficult to research

regards, Iain

Originally Posted by Traist

Hi Iain, if you look at some of the group photos, you will see different sizes of the "universal" badge worn by members of the same unit. I don't know it as a fact, but suspect that maybe different intakes had different sizes(coming from different manufacturers). Rather than the different units having different sizes. Regards Andrew

[Tinto]

Here are some pictures taken at Delville Wood in 2008.
We will remember them.
Tinto

[iaindh]

Hi Tinto,

thanks for sharing your photos.... tear jerking stuff.

I found a website that deals with the memorial:

http://www.delvillewood.com/wood.htm

Lest we forget.

According to this, the site is 63 hectares. I read somewhere else the wood was purchased by Sir Percy Fitzpatrick, one of the founders of the ILH who, if I recall lost his son in WWI. Not sure if it was at Delville wood.
He then presented it to the SA govt.

regards, Iain

[Frank Kelley]

Gentlemen,
There are really just two sizes of these badges, the large and the small, with only a very slight differance in size which I put down to all the manufacturers as mentioned, Colin Owen makes no mention of the badges made by Grigg, not surprised really, I would think he had never actually seen one, though, he does seem to suggest that the large one was worn by the 4th Regt, but, he makes no claim that it was only worn by that regiment.
It would be very unwise to do so, as there is a great amount of photographic evidence to the contrary

Originally Posted by Traist

Hi Iain, if you look at some of the group photos, you will see different sizes of the "universal" badge worn by members of the same unit. I don't know it as a fact, but suspect that maybe different intakes had different sizes(coming from different manufacturers). Rather than the different units having different sizes. Regards Andrew

[Milmed]

Hi all,
Just thought I would add some thought I have on the expeditionary force badges based on photographiv evidence.

1. Universal springbok badge:
Yes these basically came in two sizes. It appears from photographs of the early days of the force in training at Twezeldown Camp(near Aldershot) that the first issue of these all appear to be the large badge. Subsequent pictures of the force in France, shows a mix of badge sizes. So the smaller badge may have been subsequent issues for replenishment troops, and maybe a cost cutting to save on brass. An alternative is that the smaller badge may have been private purchase.

Of course officers badges are mostly private purchase and here you find more officers with smaller badges and of various finishes. In my opinion the Grigg badge is an officers badge. I have two of these found locally in Cape Town recently, though the second identical to the first does not have the Grigg hallmark.

2. The South Africa / INF / Zuid Africa appears to be the standard Infantry shoulder title. I have seen pictures of all 4 battalions wearing this title with the number worn above it. This was again in my opinion the standard issue item. All other shoulder titles, I believe are private purchase.

I have a nice bronzed version of this standard title with Tiptaft, Bham hallmark. This is the only one I have seen with a hallmark.

3. The SA Scottish titles with thistle and springbok I have never seen worn in any period photograph. I believe these are private purchase but whether for a group of officers or maybe for pipers, I cannot say.

Regards
Steven

[iaindh]

Hi Steven,

I'm inclined to agree with you on several of your points:

On the Universal badge that there was a size reduction and cost saving seems a very logical reason.
The Grigg badge probably is an Officer's badge given that its made by a medalist and well made at that.
The South Africa / INF / Zuid Africa title; these are actually quite common and not difficult to pick up whereas you seldom see eg the Springbok/thistle badge so limited amounts probably were made.

regards, Iain

[Jibba Jabba]

I found a medal on a car boot to the 4 SAI. War Graves has this man listed as Delville Wood. Still have it somewhere, ready to be sold next year.

That is beside the point though....when the forum was first setup I had the bullion wire thistle Tam badge of the Capetown Highlanders up for sale as worn during WW1. There were no takers. You can see the same badge here.

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/38126..._SEE_INFO.html

[Madziro]

Hullo Frank

The two medal groups were given to me as is. I do collect medals in general but am not a fundi on them. While still serving in the army I had free access to the SANDF archives and got these blokes records photocopied!

In a separate post by Jibba Jabba concerning a thistle badge - the Thistle badge is the Div sign for the 9th Scottish Div. The SA Bde was under command of the 9th Scottish Div at Delville Wood. It was worn in metal (as in ebay photo) on circular blue melton cloth on the upper shoulder as per other Div signs.

Regards

Dudley

[Madziro]

For interest the 9 Div badge and a 4 SAI glengarry.

[Tinto]

Hi Dudley,
Thanks for your pictures. Would you please give dimensions of the 9th Scottish Division thistle badge. I have some like it.
Cheers, Tinto

[Jibba Jabba]

Originally Posted by Madziro

Hullo Frank
I had free access to the SANDF archives and got these blokes records photocopied!

Shame you didn't publicise the fact. You could of made a business out of it. The big problem with South African Militaria is that the records are very hard to obtain particularly if you are a collector in the UK. I believe there is only one place you can go too, to acquire research. If the cost wasn't so prohibitive I probably would of dabbled more in SA militaria over the years. Also one of the few countries that really has no web presence when it comes to records. Sad really, because SA did pay a crucial roll not only on the Western front but also in Africa itself. SA's contribution should be promoted, particularly next year.

Does anyone have a photograph of the bullion thistle being worn? I believe the rank and trade insignia had the same dark blue/black background? The badge appears to have a rubberised back a lot like RN trade badges.

[Traist]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Andrew,
No, I did not, I just went and grabbed a few bits for a picture, in about, I suppose the last twenty years or so, I have only ever had three brass numerals actually in groups with the shoulder title/titles, all from South Africa and always 20-22 mm from top to bottom, I do have a few more though and all are much the same, again all found in South Africa.
The badges, collars, titles and buttons etc worn by the brigade were made here by a number of manufacturers, Gaunt, Firmin, Goldsmiths, Dowler's, Lillico's, Hobson's etc
Kind regards Frank

Thanks Frank, I will start measuring the numbers I do have. Regards Andrew