Plated Cameron Highlanders Cap Badge

[Luke H]

Hi guys,

I have aquired a Cameron highlanders which appears to be brass that has had white metal plated over it. I've heard that some believe these to be restrikes but the one I have has been plated on the lugs as well (surely a dead give away), it has also been polished down to the brass in certain places (in which case why plate it to decieve then only to polish it down to brass again?) I was wondering if there is the possibility that these badges (as I've seen one or two of them through the years) are maybe WW1 economy brass issues that were either plated before they were issued to the jocks or later when they arrived home, does anyone have any ideas?

Cheers ,

Luke

[Alan O]

Luke,

At the risk of gettting back on my hobby horse about economy bagdes I remain of the opinion that there no economy brass Cameron badges as the whole point of economy was to save labour and not white metal.

Alan

[Luke H]

Cheers for the info Alan, would you agree with me that there were no all brass dublin fusiliers? I have never seen one that even looked half convincing.

Cheers,

Luke

[Alan O]

I must admit that I have never seen a good one. Nor a gneuine RIF economy either.

Alan

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

I must admit that I have never seen a good one. Nor a gneuine RIF economy either.

Alan

My uncle has a real RIF but it is the only "right 'un" I've ever seen, I'll get him to send me the pics to put up on the forum.

Luke

[Sonofacqms]

Hello,
I am new to this type of discussion, but as for economy badges, one has to look no further than the book written by the late John Gaylor, page 135.
According to John the reason for the "all brass" 1916 badges was the fact that there was a shortage of nickel. A list of these badges seen was compiled by enthusiasts in 1965. Among them was indeed the Cameron Highlanders.
My guess is that some of these economy badges were plated after WW1 and re-issued to the regulars who polished them with the results of the original brass showing through in places. I have a Royal West Kent economy with just slight signs of plating and a Beds and Herts that is made of brass. The British Army has over the years been very frugal at times. When the Cambridgeshire badge appeared without the "e" they were recalled and issued to the Home Guard units.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

Hello,
I am new to this type of discussion, but as for economy badges, one has to look no further than the book written by the late John Gaylor, page 135.
According to John the reason for the "all brass" 1916 badges was the fact that there was a shortage of nickel. A list of these badges seen was compiled by enthusiasts in 1965. Among them was indeed the Cameron Highlanders.
My guess is that some of these economy badges were plated after WW1 and re-issued to the regulars who polished them with the results of the original brass showing through in places. I have a Royal West Kent economy with just slight signs of plating and a Beds and Herts that is made of brass. The British Army has over the years been very frugal at times. When the Cambridgeshire badge appeared without the "e" they were recalled and issued to the Home Guard units.

Hi Sonofacqms,

I actually have the Gaylor book but wouldn't believe everything you read in it, I for one have never seen nor know anyone who has seen a genuine all brass Royal Dublin Fusiliers yet Mr Gaylor and associates who compiled the all brass economy '16 list seem to believe they existed. Whilst Gaylor's book is a prescious guide I would not take it nor any other single source for that matter as absolute gospel. But as you say it is possible they are excess economy stock that was plated... not sure I have actually ever seen an all brass Camerons that I'm convinced by so it still a mystery to me :S

Cheers,

Luke

[Alan O]

Since Gaylor's book was written the official records of the Army Clothing Commitee have been released which sate that a number of bi-metal badges were to be made in one piece in order to simplify construction and save time. The w/m theory owes more to the authors own experiences in WW2 when metal was an issue. This topic has already been covered at length elsewhere so I will not drone on!

Alan

[Malcolm Davey]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

Luke,

At the risk of gettting back on my hobby horse about economy bagdes I remain of the opinion that there no economy brass Cameron badges as the whole point of economy was to save labour and not white metal.

Alan

Alan
I assume you would feel the same about the Black Watch, Argyll & Sutherland, seaforth Highlanders,Gordon Highlanders brass badges, all bar the seaforth's i have in my collection.

Cheers
Malc

[Peter Brydon]

I seem to recall reading or being told that the original Parachute Regt badges were brass,nickel plated.

Can anyone add any facts ?

P.B.

[Sonofacqms]

Looking in my copy of "Badges of the Highland & Lowland Regiments" by W. & K. Bloomer I read that R. Scots, KOSB, Cameronians, HLI, Black Watch, Seaforth, Gordons, Camerons and Argyll and Sutherland were all produced in brass, whether they actually had examples of these badges I don't know.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

I seem to recall reading or being told that the original Parachute Regt badges were brass,nickel plated.

Can anyone add any facts ?

P.B.

First issue were brass, later nickel plated, then w/m.

Regards,
Fougasse1940

[KLR]

With respect Sonofacqms, I would go a lot further than Gaylor, Bloomer et al. I don't know why people refer to these books as "reference books". They are not, they are collectors books, showing great collections and (mostly) a lot of hearsay.
As Alan says, the "reference" is in the WO ACD records at the National Archives. The badges that were produced as economy measures in gm (not true brass) are listed. The only Scots Glengarry badge in all gm (apart, of course, from the Sc Fus) was the RS - which of course had been bimetal. NONE of the others ever were.
Don't take my word, go and spend hours looking through the records yourself.
What anyone did after the 1st WW, I don't know.
happy hunting
Julian

[Alan O]

I have to agree with Julian here (Gaylor's book is not an authority but an entertaining chatty read based on snippets he picked up when involved with Societys and Journals). I would not state that all brass versions do not exist, they do - but they were no official war economy variants as the ACD records prove. The early collectors (with vastly more knowledge than me I will admit) may have had all brass examples of these badges but I would suggest that these were baazar badges, commercially made products and even mis identified Offrs badges. There was certainly a maker between the wars making brass badges and then nickel plating them instaed of producing them in the correct w/m. 'Why' is lost in the passage of time but one thing I am certain is that they were not 1916 economy badge withdrawn and then reissued! Considering the amount of war stock sold off cheaply post war (and we are talking things like whole factories here) the idea of saving a few pence through this plating is silly. This is reinforced by the fact that post war badge designs (such as the Beds and Herts) are also found made in this way. Wilkinsons book is an excellent example of the what Julian describes as a collectors' book. It was published with so many errors and mis-identifications that it required considerable revision. Even the later editions show an all brass Border regt badge that still mystifies me to this day.

Alan

[Luke H]

My favourite 'gaff' in one of Wilkinsons book was a QVC DLI being listed as worn untill 1950's with a price guide of £7... I wish.

Another strange one that interests me is a regimental castle Northamptonshire with the long key in all brass. Any ideas?

Luke