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  #1  
Old 30-11-18, 01:58 PM
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leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
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Default East Surrey Regiment Anodised Aluminium Cap Badge and British Aluminium Company Card.

Just arrived, a mint condition East Surrey Regiment cap badge, slider marked to "J.R. GAUNT LONDON" mounted on a folding foolscap sized advertising card of the British Aluminium Company.
Presumably the advertising card was distributed with other unit badges which were perhaps produced by different manufacturers.
The first time I've seen one of these cards.

Edit: I typed "beret" badge - the badge is cap badge sized, it's not the beret badge.
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Last edited by leigh kitchen; 30-11-18 at 05:01 PM. Reason: Stupidity.
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  #2  
Old 30-11-18, 04:31 PM
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Default Norfolk House

Leigh,
Thanks, not something I have seen before.

Norfolk House was General Eisenhowers SHAEF HQ in WW2

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_House
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  #3  
Old 30-11-18, 04:51 PM
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Thanks for that, I'd Googled the obvious but hadn't noted the old SHAEF connection.
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  #4  
Old 30-11-18, 09:50 PM
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Im pretty sure the East Surrey beret badge was never produced in a/a Leigh. I have no record of one in my archive.
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  #5  
Old 30-11-18, 10:15 PM
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I think the beret badge is mentioned in "Anodised Aluminium" as unauthorised in A/A and produced by Gaunt (I may have that wrong, it may be the full size cap badge that is mentioned and shown).
My mistake in my original post, I typed "beret" instead of "cap" badge.
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  #6  
Old 01-12-18, 09:13 PM
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Hi Guys,

The East Surrey in beret size with Tudor Crown was certainly authorised for issue but I have never heard of one.

LIST OF CHANGES In War Materiel and of Patterns of Military Stores which have been approved and sealed for LAND AND AIR SERVICE Volume LXII
List Of Changes dated 31st January 1952 - Change Numbers C 4818 to C 4855
Badges, Cap, Change Number C 4824
Unit Name
CB No.
Designation
Designation Notes
The East Surrey Regiment [Small]
A.A. CB 3087 G.M. CB 2450
The East Surrey Regt., Small
NEW PATTERN. A pattern (No. 14736) of the above-mentioned cap badge has been sealed to govern future manufacture for wear in the Beret and is here-by introduced. The new pattern differs from the old pattern (No. 4706) Cat. No. CB 0340 in that it is reduced in size. The later will continue to be worn in Forage and Service Dress Caps.
7th Dec., 1951-54/Vocab./153
27th Sept. 1951/Encl. 70 to 54/Officers/4025
I.C./C/1190

It was sealed on the 27th September 1951. However, the cards used were the older GM/WM examples with Tudor Crown updated to A/A use.


For the cap version in St. Edwards Crown:

Badges, Cap; Change Number C 8866
Unit Name
CB No.
Designation
Designation Notes
23rd London Regiment (East Surrey) (TA)
CB 8064
23 London
INTRODUCTION. A pattern (No. 17608) has been sealed to govern future manufacture and is hereby introduced. The badge is an eight pointed star in silver colour, surmounted by the St. Edward’s Crown and circle in gold colour. Within the circle, a lion Couchant guardant in front of a Castle the centre tower charged with an escutcheon of the Arms of Kingston-upon-Thames with scroll underneath.
2nd Oct., 1958-54/Vocab./1425
28th Jan., 1958-Encl. 47/16 to 54/Officers/4051
I.C.-C./1054 (D.I.S.C. 1731)


I show a St. Edwards Beret version on page 605 of my book as although I have yet to find evidence of it being officially authorised in St. Edwards Crown they most certainly do exist.

The example shown by Leigh looks to be the beret version with correct Gaunt slider and marking from the period. It is also a match for the entry in my book.

All this aside - the advertising card of the British Aluminium Company is spectacular and I wish I had one to display when I wrote my book.

Regards,

Chris
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Old 02-12-18, 03:51 PM
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Thanks for that info (I have the book but haven't had the opportunity to check it).
The badge that I have is of cap rather than beret size, I originally typed that it was a beret badge by mistake.
Typo re the details you've posted above about the cap badge Chris, they refer to the 23rd London's badge?
I was pleased to find the BAC card although it's a little the worse for wear.
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Old 02-12-18, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
Thanks for that info (I have the book but haven't had the opportunity to check it).
The badge that I have is of cap rather than beret size, I originally typed that it was a beret badge by mistake.
Typo re the details you've posted above about the cap badge Chris, they refer to the 23rd London's badge?
I was pleased to find the BAC card although it's a little the worse for wear.
Hi Leigh,

If these pesky units did not change names ever five minutes it would be easier.

The LoC is probably the best place to start - bypassing C 4717 entries (change of intent only) on pages 411, 412 and 418 (where 23rd London name also used) we see an East Surrey entry properly for East Surrey on page 421; A/A and Small (beret). As entry is 1952 must be for Tudor Crown.

Move to page 437 and the entry is now for 23rd London Regiment (East Surrey) (TA). This is for St.Edwards Crown but size is not given. On page 444 though the 23rd London Regiment (East Surrey) (TA) is now obsolete on 3rd Jan 1955. The change number is between the two previous entries so must relate to the small Tudor version.

OK so far?

Moving on to Pattern Cards - Pages 502 and 503. Note entry is GM/WM but card 'promoted' for A/A use. Dated 27th Sept 1951 and stamped 18 Oct 1951. This may be for original GM/WM item though. Badges still East Surrey Regiment [Small].

Page 506 - above re-iterated; page 508 - derived pattern entry for 23rd London Regiment (East Surrey) (TA) dated 28th Jan 1958 - info from List of Changes.

Pages 522 and 559 - some notes on both badges with their different unit name.

Page 586 - name of manufacturers of the badge.

Page 601 - Entry for The East Surrey Regiment [Small] with reasons why. Maker on page 602. Page 605 - example front and back of the badge which I believe reconciles with yours. There is also the entry, on page 338, for the larger version under name of 23rd London Regiment (East Surrey) (TA).

My dilemma was this. The small size badge in Tudor Crown in A/A has, to my knowledge, never been found. The 23rd London Regiment (East Surrey) (TA) in large size is reasonably common and has entry in LoC hence inclusion on page 338.

But, I could never find any official info for a small version with St.Edwards Crown yet, they do exist and as such, I made an entry for them on page 605 after taking advice from a member of the forum here who I kept in close contact with throughout the project - glad I did.

All I can say Leigh is that the small badge does exist in St.Edwards Crown and you have a genuine example of it.

Regards,

Chris
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  #9  
Old 03-12-18, 08:38 AM
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Thanks, I'm getting there but I'm confused re. the references to 23rd London's, the descriptions given for badges being for their pattern of badge with circlet and crest rather than the central shield of the East Surrey Regiment.
The a/a East Surreys badge on the BAC card is the full sized cap badge (I only have the bimetal version of the King's and the Queen's crown beret badges to compare to).
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Last edited by leigh kitchen; 03-12-18 at 08:44 AM.
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  #10  
Old 03-12-18, 09:06 AM
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I am too confused. The 23rd London's is a TA unit so is a red herring as the badge was not the same as the East Surrey regt.

As the East Surrey regiment amalgamated in 1958 and the Surrey TA Bns had their own bespoke TA badges in a/a from 1961, it was not a design that was required to be produced in a/a in the mid 1960s when many of the pre-1958 designs were in use by the TA.

There would not have been a need to produce the a/a East Surrey badge after 1958 as no one was wearing it. Consequently I am not surprised they are so rare as their production may have been confirmed to sample badges as the Regulars may have been using up old brass badges up to 1958. As has been recorded elsewhere very few Regular battalions were wearing a/a before the creation of the brigade system.

Last edited by Alan O; 03-12-18 at 10:04 AM.
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  #11  
Old 03-12-18, 10:00 AM
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Hi Guys,

Sorry, got myself confused here with the two units.

All I can say is that the East Surrey in small size was authorised in A/A but in Tudor Crown only. I do not believe any of these were manufactured though not even as samples for the pattern cards as the the WM/GM card was used.

The item on the BAC card looks to me to be an East Surrey cap badge with St. Edwards Crown. I have no official doco on this badge although it does exist with period slider and makers mark as per Leighs example.

Why, no idea they exist but they seem to be authentic pieces.

Regards,

Chris
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Old 03-12-18, 10:04 AM
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As an aside the 23rd London regiment was converted from 42 RTR in 1956 and then amalgamated in 1961 to become the Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment.

A mint-condition 23rd's cap badge is very, very common so they must have had a large number in stock in 1961, which were subsequently sold off, or these were produced for the collectors' market at a later date.
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Old 03-12-18, 10:08 AM
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I wonder if that particular badge was given away with the cards as there was no proper use for it, orders not being placed and the regiment amalgamated.
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Old 03-12-18, 10:08 AM
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Does the BAC card have any dates or script that could be date related?

When was the BAC in existance?

This may tie down the date that the badge was attached to the card.

Alan, lookin at the 23rd London Regiment (East Surrey) (TA) - these seem to have correct slider and marking for period so I don't believe they are 'knock offs'.

Regards,

Chris
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  #15  
Old 03-12-18, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
As an aside the 23rd London regiment was converted from 42 RTR in 1956 and then amalgamated in 1961 to become the Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment.

A mint-condition 23rd's cap badge is very, very common so they must have had a large number in stock in 1961, which were subsequently sold off, or these were produced for the collectors' market at a later date.
I have the 23rd London's in a/a marked to Gaunt London and to Gaunt B'HAM (the latter aquired from a forum member), if the B'ham version is genuine then it would bump the introduction of the mark back to 1961.......
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