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  #31  
Old 10-04-21, 07:05 PM
JRho2000 JRho2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by gb64 View Post
Also having now seen the full picture of the original in the opening post he wears a bandolier which in general were worn by mounted soldiers just as a bit of information.

Gerard
Thank you - yes - I have a picture of him on a horse, but I think that this may have been back in Barnsley after the war. See attached if of interest...

Many thanks,

JR
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File Type: jpg Tom on horse.jpg (83.9 KB, 64 views)
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  #32  
Old 10-04-21, 09:28 PM
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Nice picture, looking at the cap he’s wearing doubtful after WW1,well not that much after anyway if at all ?

Gerard
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  #33  
Old 10-04-21, 09:39 PM
JRho2000 JRho2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by gb64 View Post
Nice picture, looking at the cap he’s wearing doubtful after WW1,well not that much after anyway if at all ?

Gerard
You’re right. There’s a later picture with a horse in Barnsley - and he’s clearly much older!

This one is ‘Somewhere in France’.
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  #34  
Old 11-04-21, 12:01 AM
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Well this is indeed a mystery. I must agree that it does look rather like a cleaver and knife, but no such badge is known. It may possibly be a field made item not officially approved for wear that his ASC unit had?

CB
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  #35  
Old 11-04-21, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbuehler View Post
Well this is indeed a mystery. I must agree that it does look rather like a cleaver and knife, but no such badge is known. It may possibly be a field made item not officially approved for wear that his ASC unit had?

CB
Well, I agree there seems not to be any interference from folds of uniform cloth and this looks like a knife and cleaver, thanks for showing this latest photo.

Rob
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  #36  
Old 11-04-21, 10:16 AM
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I'm still of the opinion that the badge is the crossed flags with one flag being 'hidden' by a fold in the uniform sleeve.
My opinion was based on the limited information originally supplied but now that more details have emerged I did a bit more digging and found a couple of interesting items.

From Hansard - June 1915

Quote:
All butchers undergo a course of field butchery instruction at Aldershot, at the end of which they are classified as to suitability for promotion.
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-h...tchers-section

Which led me to an "Oral History" page on IWM website detailing the experience of a young butcher from Newark.

Here are a few details but the recording is worth listening to.

15/11/1914 : Recruitment underage as butcher with Army Service Corps at Newark Barracks.

11/1914-12/1914 : verbal butchery test; basic training; periods of leave due to over crowded barracks during which re-employed as civilian butcher.

2/1915-5/1915 : Posting to 19th Field Butchery Coy, Army Service Corps at Aldershot, butchery training; promotion to corporal, 3/1915.

N.B - Butchery training included identifying different parts of cattle and slaughtering a heifer. It is implied that promotion was based on doing well in this training.

May 1915 : Posted to Supply Section, No 1 Transport Coy, 11th Divisional Train.


He also mentions that although they were "Supply Section" they were attached to the "Horse Section" , which could explain having photo taken on horse.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80008969

Although there is no mention of a "butchers' badge" it does seem possible/probable that some form of trade qualification could have been awarded (locally produced for the Field Butchery Company ?) , hopefully some more information will surface to verify this.

One thing I have learned since joing this forum is that there is a lot of information we don't have and that discussions can only improve our knowledge !

.
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  #37  
Old 11-04-21, 10:28 AM
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As always its a case of "never say never", I am very wary though of round pegs being judged to fit square holes just because they look as if they'd fit.
Hopefully we'll have some input from the proficency badge gurus.
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  #38  
Old 11-04-21, 03:30 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
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Any chance that could be a “made up” badge by the field butchery school?
Dare I suggest a pioneers crossed axes with the right hand axe head cut off?
The first post photo has quite a thick shadow in the area I’m speaking of.
I know what you’re all thinking, but as one person has already said,
Never say never! D.J.
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  #39  
Old 11-04-21, 03:41 PM
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Again, something I wondered, looks like pioneers crossed axes with a head missing, but I'll end up running through every "X" shaped badge going.

What I do like, simple as it sounds, is a WWI photo with a name to it, there aren't many photos of identified individuals in my collection.

Any indication in his records as to whether he qualified on any instructor's courses?
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  #40  
Old 13-04-21, 02:22 PM
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Fatboy Ken Fatboy Ken is offline
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Just for the record,

THe ASC brought all cooks together and was tasked with training them under one training syllabus. These men came from all of the Regiments & Corps throughout the British Army, this took place in or about the 1880's.

When I say Cooks, I mean all those individuals who are tasked with Cooking and Preparing food, ie
Butchers, Bakers, Chefs, and a thousand more job titles included, which came under the heading "Catering".

It was the responsibility of each Regiment to employ their own Cooks, most of them were never actually qualified cooks. Hense the reason that these Regiments had a high proportion of food poisoning throughout their histories.

Itsoon became a major problem in the mid 1850's and as such became the responsibility of the ASC to train "All" Cooks in the trades needed, so as to ensure all persons were of a sufficient standard of training, so as to prep and cook the food required. This would ensure maximum usage of the products being cooked with minimal wastage and to also ensure the safe cooking of this produce so as to ensure it was edible.

I would not be troubled to see a baker/cook/butcher wearing a trade badge from this period for that units or "his own use" recognised/approved by them. Remember !! Once trained, this individual will return to his parent unit to carryout his duties, whether he is recognised as a member of the ASC or as a continued member of that unit.

I agree with you all, it is an unusual badge, not seen before, but please remember, he can wear what he wishes, under his own roof !! No RSM ? Then anything goes.

I would be inclined to mark this badge as follows;

Trade badge:- "Unofficial" Butcher (Meat Clever over Sharpener)
I would not be inclined to collect it as such, but a member of the ACC might.

Regards

Ken (The Fatboy)
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  #41  
Old 28-05-21, 02:05 PM
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Update :

Spotted this enamel badge which may have been the basis/inspiration for a privately made cloth badge.

.
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File Type: jpg Butcher.jpg (37.9 KB, 45 views)
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  #42  
Old 02-06-21, 09:01 PM
The Quartermaster The Quartermaster is offline
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I vote flags 😀
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