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  #1  
Old 28-12-09, 01:28 AM
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John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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Default Irish Guards Senior Ranks bi-metal cap star.

I have posted this query before. I post it again in the hope that new membership may provide an answer.

I bought this badge in 1998 from a seller in Yorkshire – no complaints at all with the seller.

It was listed as a Senior ranks badge at the time, and I have seen a listing of a Bosleys catalogue with a reference to a bi-metal cap star introduced in 1995 for Sgts.

However, the only official information I have for the introduction of the bi-metal cap star to the Irish Guards is in 2000 when the Regimental Council of the Irish Guards ordered a new bi-metal badge for Col Sgts/Sgts to allegedly bring these ranks into line with the other Guards regiments (this issue being silver and gilt the so called "millennium star")

Below I show the badge in question on the left – die struck in white metal with GM/Brass centre overlaid compared with the 2000 “millennium star” which is a two piece construction with the centre attached to the star via a screw fitment on the right.

Can anyone authenticate the “non screw” version and confirm with certainly the date of first introduction of the bi-metal badge?

Thanks

John
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  #2  
Old 28-12-09, 03:59 PM
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You may already have seen the reference in "British Army Badges" by Lt Col Robin Hodges where it says that "the silver and gilt "Centenary Star" was introduced for Colour Sergeants and Sergeants on the anniversary of the formation of the Regiment in 2000, it is said at the instigation of Warrant Officer Class 2 Jimmy Duggan."

The April 1984 COSA Section CB lists NSN 8455 99 973 9398* Gilt and silver plated, gold, green silver, gold, silver - Staff; with pin; Star of the order of St Patrick mounted on the star of the Shamrock and motto "Quis Separabit MDCCLXXX111"

Who are the "Staff" who would wear this cap star - there are separate listings for the Other Ranks anodised version, the Officers small cap star and the Officers and Warrant Officers larger cap star. There is no separate badge listed for Sergeants and Colour Sergeants.

Last edited by grey_green_acorn; 28-12-09 at 06:13 PM. Reason: extra info
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  #3  
Old 28-12-09, 04:54 PM
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"Staff" is an old title given to Battalion or Regimentally employed personnel, basically - Other ranks like Warrant Officers, Musicians and the Master Tailor (those in appointments) e.g. in most Guards Bns the "Staff" badge is worn by WOs, all Musicians and the Master Tailor. (Musicians are not part of the Bn anymore).

Andy
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  #4  
Old 28-12-09, 05:49 PM
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"G G A" many thanks for your comments, as Andy points out Battalion Staff is the collective name given to certain ranks and appointment holders within the Battalion.

All of the Battalion staff are entitled to wear the Staff Cap star this is now in fact the same cap star as worn by officers, the practice of having a separate W/O and "staff" cap star with shallow central device having been abandoned by about the late 1970s.

John.
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  #5  
Old 11-04-12, 09:57 PM
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I've never seen the 'non screw' s/nco badge before, could it possibly be a prototype?
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  #6  
Old 13-04-12, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanhath View Post
I've never seen the 'non screw' s/nco badge before, could it possibly be a prototype?
Possibly, I bought this from Cairncross in Filey c. 2003. I know that the star was officially introduced in 2000.

I also have somewhere (but will need to find it) an auction catalogue from either Bosleys or Marlows where a bi-metal IG star was included in the lot with the owner claiming in the lot notes that it was a Sgts/ Musicians badge dating from c. 1995. This is the only place where I have seem reference to any possible bi-metal star in use prior to 2000 and I remain unconvinced that it is true.

John
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  #7  
Old 31-08-19, 10:54 AM
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The current issue non-screw IG cap star in it's bag with NSN.
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  #8  
Old 31-08-19, 07:48 PM
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I have seen a few of these for sale before. Thought they were ok also.
Andy
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  #9  
Old 31-08-19, 08:20 PM
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Very interesting thread, thanks to all who posted. I’ve been trying to trace the usage of once common staff badges across the Infantry as a whole, sadly now almost abandoned by most regiments, with just the Oldest Foot Guards and a few Line battalions continuing. It’s most intriguing to learn that the Irish Guards joined the practice in 2000. I think that the Welsh Guards are now the only one’s not following a very long standing tradition within the ‘Division’/‘Brigade’ (I’m unsure which term is in contemporary use).
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Old 01-09-19, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
The current issue non-screw IG cap star in it's bag with NSN.
Alan,

The badge does not have an NSN nor pattern No. as it is not purchased from the public purse but from regimental funds. You will note that the NSN and pattern No. printed on the bag are the same. This item is probably a dealer knock off.

Regards,

Chris
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  #11  
Old 01-09-19, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Very interesting thread, thanks to all who posted. I’ve been trying to trace the usage of once common staff badges across the Infantry as a whole, sadly now almost abandoned by most regiments, with just the Oldest Foot Guards and a few Line battalions continuing. It’s most intriguing to learn that the Irish Guards joined the practice in 2000. I think that the Welsh Guards are now the only one’s not following a very long standing tradition within the ‘Division’/‘Brigade’ (I’m unsure which term is in contemporary use).
Hi Toby,

The Welsh Guards do issue a Warrant Officers cap badge which was recently authorised by the Army Dress Committee but purchased via regimental funds. Very tightly controlled by Welsh Guards stores with very few in existence. Badges are to be returned to stores on leaving the guards or promotion to officer.

Regards,

Chris

Last edited by hagwalther; 01-09-19 at 09:54 AM.
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  #12  
Old 01-09-19, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Toby,

The Welsh Guards do issue a Warrant Officers cap badge which was recently authorised by the Army Dress Committee but purchased via regimental funds. Very tightly controlled by Welsh Guards stores with very few in existence. Badges are to be returned to stores on leaving the guards or promotion to officer.

Regards,

Chris
Thanks Chris, that’s interesting to know and of course completes the tally of Foot Guards following the staff badge tradition. It’s important to note that until 1915, and the creation of warrant officers of 2nd class at the company level as CSMs, only the specialist appointments employed by battalion HQ wore the staff badge as members of the HQ staff. A great many of the appointments that existed then have either gone (become outdated, e.g. shoemaker), moved across to another cap badge and down graded (armourer), or had their status somewhat lowered (drum/pipe major.
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  #13  
Old 01-09-19, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Alan,

The badge does not have an NSN nor pattern No. as it is not purchased from the public purse but from regimental funds. You will note that the NSN and pattern No. printed on the bag are the same. This item is probably a dealer knock off.

Regards,

Chris
Chris

Am I right in thinking the badge is Firmin's? There seem to be a number of dealers with large amounts of a/a and new metal Firmin made badges at the moment including some scarce ones (CCF and TA) which suggests that they might be ordering them direct from the makers as new.

Alan

Alan
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  #14  
Old 01-09-19, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Thanks Chris, that’s interesting to know and of course completes the tally of Foot Guards following the staff badge tradition. It’s important to note that until 1915, and the creation of warrant officers of 2nd class at the company level as CSMs, only the specialist appointments employed by battalion HQ wore the staff badge as members of the HQ staff. A great many of the appointments that existed then have either gone (become outdated, e.g. shoemaker), moved across to another cap badge and down graded (armourer), or had their status somewhat lowered (drum/pipe major.
NB. According to clothing regulations 1891 the badges were to be provided under Regimental arrangement, so in that respect nothing has changed.
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  #15  
Old 01-09-19, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Thanks Chris, that’s interesting to know and of course completes the tally of Foot Guards following the staff badge tradition. It’s important to note that until 1915, and the creation of warrant officers of 2nd class at the company level as CSMs, only the specialist appointments employed by battalion HQ wore the staff badge as members of the HQ staff. A great many of the appointments that existed then have either gone (become outdated, e.g. shoemaker), moved across to another cap badge and down graded (armourer), or had their status somewhat lowered (drum/pipe major.
I believe that drum/ trumpet/ bugle/ pipe majors can be as senior as WO 2 by virtue of range ranking.
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