British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > General Topics.

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-10-07, 10:01 PM
Keith Blakeman's Avatar
Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Staring into space, just wishing I had a desk.
Posts: 2,731
Default Sliders on early badges.

I'd like to put to bed the myth that all badges which can be dated to pre-1908 must have lugs with a small selection from my collection.

Montgomeryshire Imperial Yeomanry
2nd VB The Essex Regiment
7th Dragoons

All of which either changed patterns or ceased to exist by 1908 or earlier. None are tampered with.

I have a few others mainly VB's where this is the case and have found that quite a few have had the slider's cropped, probably due to the fact they were made too long and were uncomfortable to the wearer, possibly a follow on from the long pagri sliders.

Keith
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MIY.jpg (63.9 KB, 92 views)
File Type: jpg Essex 2VB.jpg (87.9 KB, 73 views)
File Type: jpg 7th DG.jpg (63.4 KB, 75 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 19-10-07, 01:48 PM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 2,774
Default

Keith, there are a number of myths out there, another one4 was pre 1911.
However the truth is that the Royal Army Clothing Dept authorised the change from loops (their official term) to vertical shanks (ditto) in 1903. There was indeed an order that they be shoirtened in 1906 - to fit the new peaked service cap. The pagri sliders (also authorised in 1903) were very long and I can't see how they would have fitted the Field Service Cap or the Broderick (which replaced it generally in 1902).
So, I'd be very interested to see examples of your cut down sliders.
The 1903 ruling was for regular units and I'm not sure when the Vol Bns changed - or even if they all did. There are though, as you know, some Vol Bn badges with sliders and some TF badges with loops, so there doesn't seem to have been an automatic change over in 1908.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 19-10-07, 04:41 PM
Keith Blakeman's Avatar
Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Staring into space, just wishing I had a desk.
Posts: 2,731
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
Keith, there are a number of myths out there, another one4 was pre 1911.
However the truth is that the Royal Army Clothing Dept authorised the change from loops (their official term) to vertical shanks (ditto) in 1903. There was indeed an order that they be shoirtened in 1906 - to fit the new peaked service cap. The pagri sliders (also authorised in 1903) were very long and I can't see how they would have fitted the Field Service Cap or the Broderick (which replaced it generally in 1902).
So, I'd be very interested to see examples of your cut down sliders.
The 1903 ruling was for regular units and I'm not sure when the Vol Bns changed - or even if they all did. There are though, as you know, some Vol Bn badges with sliders and some TF badges with loops, so there doesn't seem to have been an automatic change over in 1908.
Here are a couple of datable pre-1908 cut-downs. 4th VB East Surrey and a another early pattern 7th DG (not mine but I don't think the owner will mind me posting it). Also maker marked so another myth about no pre-WW1 stamped sliders is blown away. I was lucky enough yesterday to get hold of a KRRC badge without the SA battle honours, the KC version and securely datable to 1905-08 once again with a slider.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 7DG. Rear 2.jpg (58.0 KB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg East Surrey Regiment. 4th VB. R.jpg (61.9 KB, 54 views)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 19-10-07, 05:51 PM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 2,774
Default

Keith,
Interesting to see the East Surrey badge (I don't know much about cavalry). It can't be a cut down pagri badge as I don't think they ever served overseas - though I'm not an expert in their history (if they had been in South Africa it would have been pre slider days). I think with other cut down sliders I have seen (on later badges generally) we'll never know the reason, though to be cut ABOVE the base of the badge makes it b****y difficult to fit into a cap. Interesting that it's constructed from two pieces too.

What would also be interesting is to find the scars of where loops had been burned off on a badge with a slider - which should date it to 1903ish ! Also a HPC treated the same way !
Any offers ?
Julian
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 19-10-07, 06:23 PM
Keith Blakeman's Avatar
Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Staring into space, just wishing I had a desk.
Posts: 2,731
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
Keith,
Interesting to see the East Surrey badge (I don't know much about cavalry). It can't be a cut down pagri badge as I don't think they ever served overseas - though I'm not an expert in their history (if they had been in South Africa it would have been pre slider days). I think with other cut down sliders I have seen (on later badges generally) we'll never know the reason, though to be cut ABOVE the base of the badge makes it b****y difficult to fit into a cap. Interesting that it's constructed from two pieces too.

What would also be interesting is to find the scars of where loops had been burned off on a badge with a slider - which should date it to 1903ish ! Also a HPC treated the same way !
Any offers ?
Julian
I honestly don't think we'll ever know either. I did once have a couple of cavalry badges where the lugs had been removed and ground right down and a slider attached very neatly. I may still have some pictures and will post them if I do.

As for the Surrey's being two piece (the 2nd VB also comes this way) I think the SA scrolls were attached to pre-1905 stock (I say 1905 as I believe this is the date when SA honours were granted to be worn). Gaylor mentions the subject of the variations: for example some VB badges come with a QVC, KC and a KC with SA honour. I can't see them making a special die until stocks were exhausted.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 19-10-07, 11:44 PM
sean michael cronin's Avatar
sean michael cronin sean michael cronin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham
Posts: 156
Default Lugs or sliders!

As far as I can see, certain dealers have found a way of increasing the value of their wares, pre/post 1908 It's the same badge, regardless of fixing. How do you explain the Warwickshire and Worcestershire Yeomanry, only produced in anodised aluminium always with two lugs. And how many "experts" sell 3rd Dragoon collar badges with lugs as Wiltshire Yeomanry. All the best Sean.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 20-10-07, 07:43 AM
Keith Blakeman's Avatar
Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Staring into space, just wishing I had a desk.
Posts: 2,731
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean michael cronin View Post
As far as I can see, certain dealers have found a way of increasing the value of their wares, pre/post 1908 It's the same badge, regardless of fixing. How do you explain the Warwickshire and Worcestershire Yeomanry, only produced in anodised aluminium always with two lugs. And how many "experts" sell 3rd Dragoon collar badges with lugs as Wiltshire Yeomanry. All the best Sean.
You're quite correct, charge a fiver more for a badge with lugs and call it Edwardian! The Wilthsire Yeomanry is one of those badges where you're caught between the devil and the deep blue see. If it has lugs it could be a 3rd DG collar, if it has a slider it could be a Welsh/Welch Regt. with the bottom scroll missing!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 16-11-07, 09:54 AM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,644
Default

Keith,

I have yet to find a Wilts Yeo badge that I am happy with for that very reason.

I too am amazed at the spurious dates some dealers come up with to justify charging more for a lugged badge. Clearly sliders came in over a number of years as stocks were used up and new badges ordered. I have a WW2 era pioneer corps badge that is lugged when they are also found with sliders.

As far as makers names go on early badges while I agree that there are early badges with named sliders I would point out that these tend to be smaller firms and it is very unusual to find a Gaunt (WW1 plaques aside) or Firmin mark on a pre WW2 badge except for the quality badges made for Officers and some cavalry/yeomanry units.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 02-05-08 at 07:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 16-11-07, 06:41 PM
Rockape's Avatar
Rockape Rockape is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 876
Default

Hi all, just adding my two pennies worth here.

When we think of conflicts like South Africa 1900-02, we may think that the war lasted for two years but forget that the troops have to stay to provide protection and stability. For example, the 7th Dragoon Guards never returned from SA until 1904. Their tour of duty lasted four years there. The 2nd Bn East Surreys served in SA from 1899-1903. The 4th VB East Surreys also served in SA but I have no return date for them. They went on to become the 23rd London Regt, who we know have the South Africa 1900-02 scroll.

So given this knowledge, the pagri badge seems a possibility for the dates given previously.

Hope this helps,

Garry

Last edited by Alan O; 23-08-08 at 07:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
dating, slider date

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:50 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.