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  #1  
Old 05-07-14, 06:29 AM
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Smile Swan Neck Lincolnshire Regiment cap badge WW1

Hi all,

Below is a "swan neck" variety Lincolnshire Regiment badge (K&K 600) on a long slider which I am reliably informed is a WW1 pattern badge. I am told that these were also worn by the VTC in all black and only the swan necked type are genuine and swapped to BM Sphinx badges in 1919. There are many variants of Lincolnshire regiment badges but this one certainly pertains to being worn in WW1. I posted it as many a thread from new members relates to the question as to how would you now if a badge worn over a large span like the Sphinx for the Lincolnshire Regiment 0f 1898-1946 was worn in WW1 or WW2 for that matter. An FN Birmingham or others makers mark helps but variants like this I suspect will become better regarded over time.

I am still looking for a photo of the swan neck badge in a photo from WW1 and that will validate further.

I have learnt much from a non-Forum member who has a rather amazing Lincolns collection and knowledge to go with it.

Regards Dean.
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File Type: jpg IMG_6169.jpg (55.6 KB, 160 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6170.jpg (60.6 KB, 101 views)

Last edited by mooke07; 05-07-14 at 10:18 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-07-14, 11:49 AM
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Glad you have finally got one Dean. I'm now looking for a 'fat face' at a decent price.

Would be very interested to hear the provenance once you have proof that the swan neck is definitely Great War period.

I know you've see it before, but here is my little Lincolnshire grouping again which shows the difference of the swan necked sphinx to a regular sphinx.

Cheers
Mark
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File Type: jpg Lincolnshire Obv.jpg (70.4 KB, 173 views)
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  #3  
Old 06-07-14, 07:05 AM
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Hi Mark,

Always happy to see a selection of Sphinx's. It shows the suitable and not so suitable differences between them very well.

Always more varieties to collect, I am after the Sphinx VB badges with SA scrolls below. Have seen them in another collectors collection. WM, lugged and not a smiling face to be seen.

All the best, Dean.
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  #4  
Old 07-07-14, 12:03 PM
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Dean,

It's interesting to learn that a blackened Lincolns badge existed.

Any chance of finding out whether this was just an unofficial painted Bi metal standard badge or was it factory blackened brass?

If the latter, I wonder if this might be the economy badge referred to by Gaylor in his unofficial list.

I'm of the opinion that it never existed in true economy form based on the fact that I've never seen one, nobody I know has seen one and the ex WW1 Lincolns I had the opportunity to speak to had never seen one either.

Of course if the Lincolns collector or indeed anybody on the forum has one it would be good to hear from them

Paul
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  #5  
Old 07-07-14, 12:34 PM
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Default Swan neck...

"I am told that these were also worn by the VTC in all black and only the swan necked type are genuine and swapped to BM Sphinx badges in 1919."

Unless there is photographic evidence of this I'd take it with a pinch of salt. Prior to the VTC receiving War Office recognition (on 19.04.16.) the War Office were very adamant that the VTC would not wear any item of uniform or insignia pertinent to units of the Army. I cannot see any TF Association permitting their regimental cap badges to be worn by VTC units. Post 1916 the only authorised cap badge for the ex-VTC units were the universal Royal Arms.
All Volunteers were authorised for disbandment on 25.09.19.

Regarding the all brass badge, I've never seen one, but a brass badge did appear in an on-line auction in 2006. It is impossible to ascertain the authenticity of this badge. Pictures attached (downloaded from web- copywrite unknown). I've never found reference to an economy version in the Pimlico ledgers stored at Kew.

Crown Imperial issue 95 (Summer 1995) has a letter claiming that this badge, with slider, is the pre 1948 OSD collar badge. Again, no evidence was produced to support this assertion. Colin Churchill's book does not mention a collar badge with slider.

Stephen.
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File Type: jpg Lincs Regt brass- restrike maybe (1).jpg (50.0 KB, 95 views)
File Type: jpg Lincs Regt brass- restrike maybe (2).jpg (49.4 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg Lincs Regt brass- restrike maybe (3).jpg (37.4 KB, 54 views)
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  #6  
Old 07-07-14, 12:37 PM
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The simple fact is there was no WO order of all brass Lincolnshire badges as shown in the National Archives.

As for the brass badge shown it would appear to be an Officers' collar 'pattern' but is clearly no collar with that badge. I wuld suspect that a collar die has been found and used to create a fantasy badge by adding a slider.
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  #7  
Old 07-07-14, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
The simple fact is there was no WO order of all brass Lincolnshire badges as shown in the National Archives.

As for the brass badge shown it would appear to be an Officers' collar 'pattern' but is clearly no collar with that badge. I wuld suspect that a collar die has been found and used to create a fantasy badge by adding a slider.
I agree.

I do have the above badge that started this thread with a bronze like finish, that one was worn during WW1 by a 3rd Battalion officer. I have always remained very sceptical about it because sometimes group lots get items added to them, to spice them up. When I spoke with another collector who used to own the group, if he could remember a badge being with the lot, it he declined to answer. Since I can find no photograph of the officer concerned I still have no concrete proof.

Secondly if you want to see a standard patters badge, being worn by an officer on as part of a cuff rank uniform have a look inside the history of the 5th Battalion. There is a good officer portrait in there with it as clear as day. The officer wears no collar insignia.

A number of years ago I did own one of these badges and foolishly sold it. When trying to sell it I distinctly remember the sharp intake of breath from the dealer concerned, as if I was ripping him off. In the end, to follow through with the sale he had scratch it with a pair of scissors. he must of wanted to check for nickel I can only assume.
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  #8  
Old 07-07-14, 04:17 PM
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Jibba Jabba,

Presumably this is Sandall's book?

I'm looking for an other ranks pattern badge worn on the sleeve...can you advise the page number or officers name because I can't see it.

Presumably the shape is the same as the O/R badge but is cast silver/gilt?

Paul
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  #9  
Old 08-07-14, 09:39 AM
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Hi chaps,

Thanks for the additional input on the issue of a blackened VTC badge for the Lincolnshire Regiment. I shall ask the Lincoln's collector for more specific information and perhaps a photograph of his own and a picture of it being worn if he has one.

I don't disagree with anything I have read and only know of the all bronze first pattern Sphinx badge of which I have an example of in my album and now sown below. This is pre-war WW1 and there are plenty of photographs of it being worn.

Cheers Dean.
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File Type: jpg lin.15.f.jpg (51.6 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg lin.15.r.jpg (53.7 KB, 23 views)

Last edited by mooke07; 17-07-14 at 08:47 AM.
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  #10  
Old 12-07-14, 07:23 AM
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I can only back up what you say about this style being Great War. I have one with provenance, plus have seen photographs moderately recently of WW1 lads wearing it. I will look out for the pics and post.
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  #11  
Old 12-07-14, 08:10 AM
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Thanks Lincolnsreg - photographs in wear would be good I have a Lincoln's book of photographs which I will look through as well, cheers Dean.
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  #12  
Old 13-07-14, 07:09 AM
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From a quick Google search, this seems to look right:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...owtopic=208998

Cheers,
Dave
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  #13  
Old 13-07-14, 08:02 AM
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Yes Dave that looks to be a Swan neck Lincolnshire badge. There is a group of 6th Battalion soldiers where several can clearly be seen wearing them in John Benson's excellent book The Lincolns on page 124 during his Great War chapter.

Cheers Dean.
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  #14  
Old 13-07-14, 09:18 AM
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Not the best picture admittedly, but would this badge be categorised as 'swan neck'?


Kevin
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File Type: jpg Lincolns cap badge (1) (front).jpg (96.2 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg Lincolns cap badge (1) (rear).jpg (113.6 KB, 45 views)
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  #15  
Old 13-07-14, 10:41 AM
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Hi Kevin,

Yes I think that one would pass as a Swan Neck variety even with pictures as they are as you can see the higher taper and bearing of the Sphinx's head, similar tabs from Lincolnshire scroll. Like the tapered slider. Thanks for sharing, cheers Dean.
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