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  #16  
Old 31-07-21, 09:08 AM
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I am dismayed by this thread,

I have known Cedric since I was at school he has helped and advised me as a young collector and has been a friend for many years. Close to 50.

Non of us are infallible but to be honest who is the expert on all things.

I do not know anything about the badge brought up for no reason,however the Staffs police badge at the start of th thread I have knowledge on and it is a typical example of a quite difficult item to find the badge quoted sold on Cedric’s web page was also nice typical example sold at a very good price I must add by Cedric.

I have purchased and traded items with Cedrick indeed received items as gifts from him, over the years.

I have spent many happy hours in his home.

This man is a legend in the collecting world in the midlands.

Moderators please close this thread

Sincerely

Stephen

Last edited by yorkstone; 31-07-21 at 09:56 AM.
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  #17  
Old 31-07-21, 10:14 AM
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Just to throw my opinion in the ring here. I do not know this dealer and have never bought from him and I do not have the expertise to comment on the badges in question. However, I do stand by Luke's comments. Surely, it is a large part of the forum's importance to point out bad badges so that people like me and new collectors can avoid expensive mistakes and can learn from such threads.


Mark

Last edited by mm1; 31-07-21 at 10:15 AM. Reason: extra info
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  #18  
Old 31-07-21, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altcar73 View Post
The start of this thread relates to a a genuine Staffordshire Police shako/cap badge and a perfectly legitimate discussion followed.

Then for some reason the thread is highjacked by "Luke H" who begins a personal attack on another forum member (Cedric Heys). Luke H then takes copyrighted material from a website belonging to Mr. Heys and posts it on this forum.

The rules of this forum are very clear:-

1. Do not post copyrighted material.

2. The forum is not a soap box for personal attacks on individuals or
businesses.

It is becoming very common for forum members to engage in "business bashing" by either naming the business and making derogatory comments or simply posting links to businesses without adverse comments. The first is totally unacceptable and cannot in any way be defended, the forum rules make this clear.

If Luke H has issues with an individual or business, then that should be dealt with via an email to the business or a PM. To seek to defame an individual publicly is not appropriate. If Luke H wishes to have a "fight" in court then that is his option - but in doing so he should not put the forum, or the very generous gent that runs it at risk.

Dave.
Where is the personal attack Dave?

It’s incredibly clear that many members on this forum have no objection to and even fly to the defence of old pals or mentors selling repros as originals rather than looking at it objectively. The fall back position of he’s a nice guy, I’ve been round his house, he sent me gifts etc. is one I keep hearing.

If you care to look at these badges you’ll find many a threads on them:

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/12t...ap-badge-l2415

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...cap-badge-c765

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...ap-badge-l1835

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...al-large-crown

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...lackened-brass

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...p-badge-ta2363

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...cap-badge-c797

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...es-white-metal

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...ts-white-metal

None are originals. That’s just the first 2 pages of cap badges. Hence the comment on reliability. And it’s not defamation Dave as you know if true.

Re your penultimate paragraph, if the forum is not here to point out repros, those selling them (especially as originals), and offer advice where caution is needed - then why does it exist if buying fakes sold as original doesn’t matter?

Also surely by that same logic we shouldn’t ever have commented on the business or wares of badgeman or taxicar et al?

I’ve nothing against Cedric or anyone else running a business. But the stand to defensive reaction by them all seems to be ‘that’s libel’ and ‘you can’t say that’ rather than looking at the points raised, what it is they’re selling and taking a look in the mirror in some cases.

I guarantee if this were a retail setting and fake Armani jeans being sold as originals on a website they wouldn’t have comments on a forum to worry about, the boot would be on the other foot and Armani’s lawyers getting in touch with website owner along with Trading Standards. In this hobby we sadly do not have such buyer protection.
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  #19  
Old 31-07-21, 10:22 AM
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Excellent post Luke.
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  #20  
Old 31-07-21, 10:29 AM
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Luke is very knowledgable on spotting fakes, restrikes and fantasy badges and has gone to a lot of time and effort in assisting members by his many posts and not least his comprehensive information on Martin Marsh fakes which it seems are the majority of the fake badges out there.

I value his opinion on these matters and am very grateful to him and all new collectors should take notice of the information he imparts on fakes.

Its of no matter to me which sellers are discussed and if as is becoming increasingly apparant professional dealers are selling fakes I for one would want to know.

Keep up the good work .
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  #21  
Old 31-07-21, 10:53 AM
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Having observed this and other threads, I would say that it becomes tiresome when threads spiral into attacks on dealers, sellers or collectors.

NO ONE is infallible. No ifs or buts.

Collectors make mistakes, as do sellers and dealers, all honest mistakes, and it does not mean they are rogues. I personally have been collecting about 45 years and consider myself very knowledgeable in my subject. This is perhaps borne out by the fact that from time to time dealers and even specialist auction houses at the top of their fields have contacted me for my opinion on items, or to ask if I can provide further information on an item. However, at the same time I also am very happy to admit that I learn every week, often from people who have studied Squadrons, units or forces within my chosen area of interest and have a deeper interest in certain areas.

There are many self-confessed experts, I am not one. If others tell me I am it is very flattering. But I have seen dealers and collectors who have wrongly labelled things in their collection, and can immediately think of two books, both universally accepted as 'bibles' on their subject, with numerous errors and even reproduction badges amongst their pages.

We all learn. We all make mistakes. Telling a child off for doing something wrong is one thing. Gently telling them why it is wrong is another. Advising, learning and growing is not the same as labelling or slandering. Most of us are happy to learn. Even after 45 years.
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  #22  
Old 31-07-21, 11:00 AM
altcar73 altcar73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Where is the personal attack Dave?

It’s incredibly clear that many members on this forum have no objection to and even fly to the defence of old pals or mentors selling repros as originals rather than looking at it objectively. The fall back position of he’s a nice guy, I’ve been round his house, he sent me gifts etc. is one I keep hearing.

If you care to look at these badges you’ll find many a threads on them:

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/12t...ap-badge-l2415

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...cap-badge-c765

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...ap-badge-l1835

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...al-large-crown

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...lackened-brass

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...p-badge-ta2363

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...cap-badge-c797

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...es-white-metal

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/bri...ts-white-metal

None are originals. That’s just the first 2 pages of cap badges. Hence the comment on reliability. And it’s not defamation Dave as you know if true.

Re your penultimate paragraph, if the forum is not here to point out repros, those selling them (especially as originals), and offer advice where caution is needed - then why does it exist if buying fakes sold as original doesn’t matter?

Also surely by that same logic we shouldn’t ever have commented on the business or wares of badgeman or taxicar et al?

I’ve nothing against Cedric or anyone else running a business. But the stand to defensive reaction by them all seems to be ‘that’s libel’ and ‘you can’t say that’ rather than looking at the points raised, what it is they’re selling and taking a look in the mirror in some cases.

I guarantee if this were a retail setting and fake Armani jeans being sold as originals on a website they wouldn’t have comments on a forum to worry about, the boot would be on the other foot and Armani’s lawyers getting in touch with website owner along with Trading Standards. In this hobby we sadly do not have such buyer protection.
Luke,

Just follow the forum rules. If you do that you don't put the forum at risk. More importantly, you don't put Mike at risk. There is an easy way to point out to forum members when a badge is not genuine and I'm sure I don't need to tell you how to do that. There is no need to mention names. You can achieve your objective quite easily - but you seem to be creating issues which others may at some future date need to resolve.

Dave.

Last edited by altcar73; 31-07-21 at 11:07 AM.
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  #23  
Old 31-07-21, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altcar73 View Post
Luke,

Just follow the forum rules. If do that you don't put the forum at risk. More importantly, you don't put Mike at risk. There is an easy way to point out to forum members when a badge is not genuine and I'm sure I don't need to tell you how to do that. There is no need to mention names. You can achieve your objective quite easily - but you seem to be creating issues which others may at some future date need to resolve.

Dave.
Dave,

I’ve never had any intention of putting the forum or Mike at any risk and am sorry for any grief I’ve caused him, which I have said to him previously in private.

Point being, even if a link is posted saying ‘this is not a good badge’, a seller can still claim the post and forum had negatively affected their business and threaten defamation, libel etc. That’s a fact.

Even if a name is not mentioned in a thread it’s there in black and white (or green in this case) on the linked site so the inference remains.

The ‘issue’ I would suggest is the sale of fake badges as original, which as you know goes beyond civil law into criminal if done knowingly. Now I’m not suggesting that is the case here.

I don’t see how I’m the bad guy for use of the phrase ‘not the most reliable’. I did not chime in on your observations of Police Memorabilia Collectors Club in the recent Belfast Harbour Police thread which were tantamount if not a little stronger than my own turn of phrase here. Indeed I much respect your input.

Sadly ‘saying it like it is’ seems to fast be becoming a thing of the past and the winners will not be collectors.

Luke

P.S. I look forward to seeing your input re naming on the ‘Nigel Flitter new eBay account, buyer beware’ thread which is currently active.
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  #24  
Old 31-07-21, 12:44 PM
altcar73 altcar73 is offline
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Luke,

I take your point. I don't trawl the forum looking for threads to comment on and the only reason I looked at this one is because it related to a police badge, otherwise I'd not have bothered. I could not understand why you suddenly sought to divert the course of the thread onto something which was totally unrelated to the badge which was being discussed.

As to the Police Memorabilia Collectors Club, I think there is a deal of difference between describing someone (unnamed) as not being particularly knowledgeable and describing someone (named) as not being the most reliable. In the case of the PMCC I was seeking to excuse the failure to indicate that the badge in question was a copy and in that respect my reason for doing so was fairly obvious. By saying that someone is unreliable can be interpreted in a number of ways. Perhaps another form of words could have been used.

As you may have guessed, my knowledge of military badges could be written on the back of a postage stamp and I normally stay well away from expressing any opinion on them or getting involved in discussion. I am all for pointing out repro. badges as and when appropriate, but obviously confine my comments to items I know something about. That said I always try to be careful not to overstep the mark when it comes to naming individuals or businesses as I know that vicarious liability lies with the forum owner and not me personally. How Mike runs his site is a matter for him. I know that there is a cost implication and in that respect he is to be congratulated for providing such a service at no cost to the users. I do get a bit troubled sometimes when I see some of the posts which could potentially cause him difficulty.

I will not be looking at or for flitter or whatever he is!

Dave.

Last edited by altcar73; 31-07-21 at 02:47 PM.
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  #25  
Old 31-07-21, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm1 View Post
Just to throw my opinion in the ring here. I do not know this dealer and have never bought from him and I do not have the expertise to comment on the badges in question. However, I do stand by Luke's comments. Surely, it is a large part of the forum's importance to point out bad badges so that people like me and new collectors can avoid expensive mistakes and can learn from such threads.


Mark
Ditto.
Andy
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  #26  
Old 31-07-21, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
Ditto.
Andy
Agreed.
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  #27  
Old 31-07-21, 10:29 PM
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I'm in full agreement with Luke.

Well said that man and very lucidly put.

Regards.

Brian
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  #28  
Old 01-08-21, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Surely, it is a large part of the forum's importance to point out bad badges so that people like me and new collectors can avoid expensive mistakes and can learn from such threads.
Only if it is accompanied with an explanation as to why it is bad...
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  #29  
Old 06-08-21, 12:10 PM
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I think, to be quite honest, it's a difficult one, time does not stand still, I remember Cedric from the eighties, both his lists and his stall upon the stage at Stockport town hall when fairs really were fairs, never a wrong badge and I still have those that I bought back in the day, very happy times indeed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkstone View Post
I am dismayed by this thread,

I have known Cedric since I was at school he has helped and advised me as a young collector and has been a friend for many years. Close to 50.

Non of us are infallible but to be honest who is the expert on all things.

I do not know anything about the badge brought up for no reason,however the Staffs police badge at the start of th thread I have knowledge on and it is a typical example of a quite difficult item to find the badge quoted sold on Cedricís web page was also nice typical example sold at a very good price I must add by Cedric.

I have purchased and traded items with Cedrick indeed received items as gifts from him, over the years.

I have spent many happy hours in his home.

This man is a legend in the collecting world in the midlands.

Moderators please close this thread

Sincerely

Stephen
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  #30  
Old 06-08-21, 12:19 PM
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Certainly from my own point of view, that is absolutely the key issue, when I started to collect there was still a degree of a school boy hobby to cap badges, given the prices now being sought and payed, this is clearly no longer the case.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mm1 View Post
Surely, it is a large part of the forum's importance to point out bad badges so that people like me and new collectors can avoid expensive mistakes and can learn from such threads.


Mark

Last edited by Frank Kelley; 06-08-21 at 12:57 PM.
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