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  #16  
Old 18-01-21, 12:24 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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Woodward from official contract lists
Military ornaments not badges
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  #17  
Old 18-01-21, 12:24 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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Lambournes
Probably a typo or misread by some whilst researching with the &Co
Other lambourne on list with & Co from Manchester in pic on next post

Last edited by Paul Spellman; 18-01-21 at 12:34 AM.
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  #18  
Old 18-01-21, 12:25 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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pic
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Last edited by Paul Spellman; 18-01-21 at 12:34 AM.
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  #19  
Old 18-01-21, 12:26 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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Lambourne period advert
Into the 50’s they did adopt Ltd by then they were using other trade names like Sothos
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Last edited by Paul Spellman; 18-01-21 at 12:36 AM.
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  #20  
Old 18-01-21, 12:28 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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Original Lambournes OSD no &Co.
Why would they have & Co on just ORs badges and not on other wares they made
It makes no sense
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  #21  
Old 18-01-21, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofacqms View Post
Luke,
Maybe I phrased my post wrong and if I have muddied the waters I am sorry, I have some maker marked badges in my collection, three bearing the mark of SUTTLE CAMBRIDGE, two were bought in a lot at auction along with other Great War items. The other on a car boot sale.

Suttle had two gentleman's tailors shops in Cambridge which have long disappeared and I would think after collecting and buying badges for over 65 years in and around the Cambridge area I would have more, sadly not.

We have some excellent researchers on this forum, far more knowledgeable than I am and I have learned a lot from being a member of this forum, no doubt there are many original maker marked sliders on badges, but there are also a lot which are wrong and they do seem more prolific now.

I have been caught out by a less than honest dealer with a maker marked slider, which is why I am wary of them, as for Great War badges being of low value sixty years ago, I beg to differ, I have some of Bill Tobins lists from the sixties and RND badges were expensive even then, of course all badge prices are generally relevant

I would be interested to know how many original "Hate Belts" or "Trophy Belts" that are attributed to the Great War era actually have named sliders on them.

Rob
Suttle was an outfitter as I understand rather than a manufacturer. Therefore they may not have acquired many or had them all marked. However many youíve seen in your area is still 100% more than me in the London area my whole life. So if there is a very small number comparatively youíve seen more than most!

As you were talking non-Gaunt I did not include RNDs.

The WW1 makers I am referring to Lambourne, Smith & Wright, Woodward, Bodill Parker etc. made and marked many standard infantry and corps badges which were the crux of my post. As I understand it these were traded in school playgrounds. Even 60 years of inflation on many of these are worth less than a London pint.

Come on are you really saying you want examples of them all on hate belts? I can think of dozens of badges Iíve never ever seen on a hate belt that doesnít mean those badges are spurious or didnít exist.

I could direct you to the MM section where youíll find a nice Bodill Parker & Co marker Norfolk Yeomanry. Finding an example of every maker marked badge on a hate belt is unrealistic.

How many Suttle badges are on hate belts? Assuming for the sake of argument they are WW1 period. Being so scarce thereís a chance none are on a hate belt anywhere.

Most maker marked badges are very scarce vís those from the same die that are unmarked. How many have a keen enough eye or care enough to identify a certain badge being an unmarked example? Few. Hate belts are at best a lottery and maker marked badges a thunderball amongst that numbers.
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  #22  
Old 18-01-21, 12:45 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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Itís unfortunate that the lists Ticker created donít show what war work the different companies undertook as the excerpts I show does, he states they were for badges metal but it does not correlate with the lists I accessed which were requested by Parliament. I will go through these company names and provide the specific details what they made over the next week or so
His lists do not show any ref to FN contracts neither, where have their dies came from ??
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  #23  
Old 18-01-21, 01:09 AM
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Default Lambourneís / Lambourne & Co

They used both names.

Last edited by Luke H; 18-01-21 at 01:28 AM. Reason: Picture credit - Phil2M & leigh kitchen... any issues let me know and will remove.
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  #24  
Old 18-01-21, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Spellman View Post
Itís unfortunate that the lists Ticker created donít show what war work the different companies undertook as the excerpts I show does, he states they were for badges metal but it does not correlate with the lists I accessed which were requested by Parliament.
I wouldnít necessarily trust Parliament or governmentís records finding ability. Ticker had the gazettes, a primary source, at hand when he completed his work.

Access requests to any public body are dependent on the person they make search and collate records/data. Speaking as one who has done this I know error of some degree is to be expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Spellman View Post
I will go through these company names and provide the specific details what they made over the next week or so
His lists do not show any ref to FN contracts neither, where have their dies came from ??
Iím inclined to agree regards FN. Personally Iíve always felt they were not a WW1 manufacturer but a later one. This is why I do not have their all GM South Wales Borderers badge in my 1916 economy collection. That particular badge is a mystery. Mounting my own hobby horse I can say I both dislike and avoid them due to so many FN badges being restruck from the original dies.

I do not however believe many makers have suffered this albeit Woodward and Gaunt have to some limited degree.
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  #25  
Old 18-01-21, 06:46 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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The lists I show were put together by the WD,Board of Trade and Admiralty Contractor Lists for Parliament to scrutinise what war work was being done and by whom due to lack of sufficient records being kept. (Tickers lists as you state a primary source from the Board of Trade Gazette are part of this)
I’m not naive to think these sufficient on their own which is why where possible I looked at each companies records including advertising and maker mark details on their products before and after WW1.
There is certainly no evidence I have found to suggest Lambournes used both maker marks but if you do you should share it.

Last edited by Paul Spellman; 18-01-21 at 06:56 AM.
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  #26  
Old 18-01-21, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Spellman View Post
There is certainly no evidence I have found to suggest Lambournes used both maker marks but if you do you should share it.
I’ve shown you an extract from the Board of Trade Labour Gazette 1914-19, a primary source, with their name listed as Lambourne & Co and address in B’ham.

When the photos were up I looked through them. Perhaps if you request them from Parliament you can satisfy yourself.

So are you saying all Lambourne marked badges are fakes?

Have you looked at the makers marks on both NHD badge, both are from the same die. The Birmingham stamp is identical on both badges. You find plaques of identical size/shape marked. Both are rare as hens teeth. These have not been restruck.
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  #27  
Old 18-01-21, 11:05 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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As I said likely a typo in the gazette
Nowhere else are they referred with &Co.
It’s probably this ref fakers used,
it certainly doesn’t explain the use of just Lambournes in conjunction with the Lambournes & Co during the same period
Your obviously very sure the NDH has not been faked so I’m glad your happy with them.
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  #28  
Old 18-01-21, 12:00 PM
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I’ve shown you it in black and white from a period document. That you choose to ignore it and write it off is your choice.

If it’s in the BoT LG as Lambourne & Co., 159, Great Charles Street, Birmingham that will be who the WO were writing cheques to.

As to the badges, they’re genuine and I sleep very soundly.
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  #29  
Old 18-01-21, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Spellman View Post
Another company Lambournes marked their wares Lambournes and were never known as Lambournes & Co.
Genuine OSD badges can be found plus many other items they made as well as their advertising over the period of their history shows only Lambournes with no (& Co)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Lambourne were also known as Lambourne & Co. attached is the extract from the Board of Trade Labour Gazette with their address. Iíve also seen Ď& Coí marked on their sheet brass items and also civilian buttons and cufflinks.
Hi guys , as a 'novice' this "tennis match" has my head spinning !

Can someone clarify a couple of points for me :

1. Is this "discussion" about specific badges/marks from one period of time ?

or

2. Is it about the name/names used by the company ?

A quick search brought up a couple of items :

Quote:
original First World War period 'Imperial Service' die-cast nickel plated badge scarce with maker's details "Lambourne & Co Birmingham"
and

Quote:
the reverse impressed with Birmingham silver hallmarks for 1916 and maker's details "Lambourne & Co Birmingham".
So , were there 2 different companies or 2 'branches' of the same company making (and marking) different items ?

I may have missed something but a basic explanation would be helpful.


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  #30  
Old 18-01-21, 01:12 PM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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Yet you choose to ignore the evidence I show you
I have no hidden agenda with this but do wander why I bothered given the insidious remark in the TC thread about the Illuminati and the suggestion I was odious (albeit in the wrong context)

Attached is samples of the Lambournes branding before and after WW1 all lack the & Co so itís obvious the & co marks were reserved for war service

Apologies for quality of some snaps
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