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  #1  
Old 23-05-22, 09:10 PM
Mallard72 Mallard72 is offline
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Default Volunteer Battalions

Hello,
Can anyone tell me how many volunteer battalions the Welsh Regiment and the Buffs had 1881- 1902.
Thanks,
Kevin
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  #2  
Old 23-05-22, 09:53 PM
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The Buffs had two, the 2nd Kent (East Kent) RVC and the 5th Kent (Weald of Kent) RVC.

The Welsh had four, the 1st Pembrokeshire (Pembroke, Carmarthen and Haverfordwest) RVC, 1st Glamorganshire RVC, 2nd Glamorganshire RVC and
3rd Glamorganshire RVC.

These battalions all became part of their affiliated regiments without change of title in July 1881.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 23-05-22 at 10:42 PM.
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  #3  
Old 23-05-22, 10:15 PM
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The above are the predecessors of their numbered Volunteer Battalions, which were as follows.

Buffs

1VB from 1883
2VB from 1883

Welsh

1VB from 1887
2VB from 1887
3VB from 1887.

regards
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  #4  
Old 24-05-22, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mallard72 View Post
Hello,
Can anyone tell me how many volunteer battalions the Welsh Regiment and the Buffs had 1881- 1902.
Thanks,
Kevin
I assume you can find the answer on this page of my web site: The Volunteer units as parts of the territorial regiments 1881-1914

I count 2 for The Buffs (East Kent Regiment).

And I count 3 for The Welsh Regiment (on first sight it looks like 4, but the 3rd Glamorganshire RVC was never designated as a Volunteer Battalion).
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  #5  
Old 24-05-22, 12:32 PM
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Henk,

You are incorrect. The 3rd Glamorgan RVC were the 4th VB Welsh Reg't, it is just that they did not change their title after 1881.

Hwyl,

Kevin
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  #6  
Old 24-05-22, 01:03 PM
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Well, it is a bit about semantics.

The question was indeed "how many volunteer battalions" and I was unsure if the OP meant functionality or designations. Thus my remark was more a pointer to the fact that some volunteer battalions stayed designated as RVC (and later as VRC). Thus to enable the OP to decide for himself if he wants to include that one in his count or not.

And as you can see on the page I linked to,, it says in the first paragraph:
Quote:
In 1881 at the creation of the two battalion, territorial related, regular regiments, the Rifle Volunteers were added to those regiments as volunteer battalions. This can be seen in the first column.
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  #7  
Old 24-05-22, 01:41 PM
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This is not about semantics, it is about fact.
You clearly state that "the 3rd Glamorganshire RVC was never designated as a Volunteer Battalion". They were the 4th VB Welsh and remained so until they became the 6th territorial battalion in 1908.
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  #8  
Old 24-05-22, 01:59 PM
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The retention of the RVC title after becoming a VB on the establishment was not unique to the Welsh Regt. There were lots of other VBs who chose to retain the old titles. The creation of the TF was also not also so straightforward as whilst many had a simple lineage and re-numbering some VB units were merged or even disbanded.
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  #9  
Old 24-05-22, 02:02 PM
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I quote from Tracing the Rifle Volunteers by Ray Westlake.

Quote:
3rd Formed at Swansea on 12 October 1859 and soon comprised four companies under the command of Major Lewis Llewellyn Dillwyn. Later increased to six companies and became a volunteer battalion (without change of title) of the Welsh Regiment in 1881. Increased from six to nine companies in 1900 and then twelve as the Swansea personnel of 2nd Volunteer Battalion Welsh Regiment were transferred in 1905. The 3rd corps provided the 6 Battalion Welsh Regiment upon transfer to the Territorial Force in 1908. Uniform scarlet/green, changing to scarlet/white
From Westlake's first chapter in the book:
Quote:
...... It was by no means all corps that assumed the new 'VB' designations and several, while taking their place in the regiment's Volunteer line-up, chose to retain their RVC titles. Thse however, were required to change, eg, from 1st Dumbarton Rifle Volunteer Corps to 1st Dumbarton Volunteer Rifle Corps in 1891.
As Westlake clearly has in all his entries when a RVC changed designation to that of a VB when that was the case, my conclusion is that it never was designated 4th Volunteer Battalion Welsh Regiment. Your opinion may of course be different, but you did not convince me to change the information on the page.
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  #10  
Old 24-05-22, 02:15 PM
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The change was from RVC to VRC but I believe that for the purposes of establishment they still fell into the VB structure.

If there had been another Welsh VB raised then it would have been 5th VB not the 4th as that was the VRC's place. It's pedantry perhaps but as far as the WD were concerned they were within the VB establishment.
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  #11  
Old 24-05-22, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
The change was from RVC to VRC but I believe that for the purposes of establishment they still fell into the VB structure.

If there had been another Welsh VB raised then it would have been 5th VB not the 4th as that was the VRC's place. It's pedantry perhaps but as far as the WD were concerned they were within the VB establishment.
Of course they were the same as all others VB or RVC/VRC. It is pure the well known British sticking to names/habits/the past/traditions and all that (if I may say so as a foreigner ).

But that is what it makes so interesting. They are all the same, but do not want to be so, thus they give themselves unique names, stick to it to the utmost, etc. When not, then there wouldn't even have been a Welsh Regiment, just 41st Infantry or so.
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  #12  
Old 24-05-22, 03:15 PM
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Hello Henk,
Well done indeed. I think your Web-site is first class and extremely helpful. The proof of most puddings (in relation to volunteer battalion cap badges and glengarries) is when one can actually see, and even hold, a genuine example. Sadly, some examples are now so scarce one begins to wonder whether or not they actually existed !!!!!!!!
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  #13  
Old 24-05-22, 06:00 PM
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As a novice it is easy to get confused .

From "Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles" By Ray Westlake.

1859 3rd Glamorganshire R.V.C. raised in Swansea.

1881 Became a volunteer bn of the Welsh Regiment.

1908 Became 6th (Glamorgan) Bn (TF).

Wiki doesn't help with this sentence , even though it lists Frederick and Westlake as sources.

Quote:
the 3rd Glamorgan RVC became a six-company Volunteer Battalion of the regiment. It ranked as the regiment's 4th VB, but did not change its traditional title, despite the potential for confusion with the regiment's 3rd (Glamorgan) VB at Pontypridd.
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  #14  
Old 25-05-22, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_vee View Post
As a novice it is easy to get confused .

From "Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles" By Ray Westlake.

1859 3rd Glamorganshire R.V.C. raised in Swansea.

1881 Became a volunteer bn of the Welsh Regiment.

1908 Became 6th (Glamorgan) Bn (TF).

Wiki doesn't help with this sentence , even though it lists Frederick and Westlake as sources.



.
So, what is the confusion? What you show is in line with what I quote from Tracing the Rifle Volunteers in post #9 above and with the page: Infantry Volunteers Glamorganshire. (As the page is based on the book, they show the same).
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  #15  
Old 25-05-22, 09:59 AM
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There should be no confusion. If you simply consult the Regimental History- History Of The Services Of The 41st (the Welch) Regiment, Lomax 1899. Bottom of page 293 on.
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File Type: jpg Welch Reg't History 1881 p.293.jpg (109.9 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg Welch Reg't History 1881 p.294.jpg (88.9 KB, 23 views)

Last edited by 41st; 26-05-22 at 08:03 AM.
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