British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Other Commonwealth Military Insignia > New Zealand Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 15-05-21, 07:01 PM
jean-paul Vermersch's Avatar
jean-paul Vermersch jean-paul Vermersch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: North of France
Posts: 250
Default

Bonsoir à tous, Hello everybody.

I live very close to Arras in France.
I actually have 2 cap badges from NZ engineers.
A larger one of 31mm in diameter and a smaller one of 23mm in diameter.
The largest is a New Zealand tunneleer. It comes from New Zealand....
They dug the galleries connecting the old quarries under the city of Arras before the offensive of April 9, 1917 and many others in the region, not to mention the mine tunnels ....

Sorry i don't find the title...

J-P.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg NZ Engineer & Tunneler.jpg (101.2 KB, 38 views)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 15-05-21, 07:09 PM
jean-paul Vermersch's Avatar
jean-paul Vermersch jean-paul Vermersch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: North of France
Posts: 250
Default

I have those there too
NZ Maori tunneleers!....

Come in Arras and Visit "Wellington Quarries"!

Good weekend!

J-P
Attached Images
File Type: jpg NZ Maori Pioneers 1916-17 (1).jpg (73.6 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg New Zealand Pioneer Maori Battalion 1917 (1).jpg (54.3 KB, 21 views)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 15-05-21, 08:01 PM
pukman's Avatar
pukman pukman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Southland,New Zealand
Posts: 741
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbroadarrowz View Post
There is photographic evidence to show that known tunnellers wore the large badge and E of New Zealand, but what I ask is were they the only ones?
Did NZ Engineers also wear these badges.

NZ authorities did order another batch of NZE cap badges but why did they enlarge the design? Was this a mistake in dimensions, seems a lot of effort to have to make a new die etc. If they were going to make a new die why didn't they make a new badge design.

So far there is still no evidenced based research to support the theory of a large size NZE cap badge being made specifically for tunnellers.
There is also no evidence to say that the shoulder title with the E was only worn by tunnellers.

The large size NZE badge is scarce and if the large size NZE badge was specifically made for the tunnellers why are there not more about? How many badges would have needed to be made for the tunnellers? the percentages don't add up in my book.
If the tunnellers were granted a specific large NZE badge as their own, then this would have been a unit distinction and cherished by the tunnellers. Where are the orders or information to support this?

food for thought.
Barry
I valid point Barry , but as I deal in photographic evidence and not anecdotal evidence , I am yet to find a non tunneller, NZE , wearing the large badge or shoulder title with the E/New Zealand . If you have all 5 volumes of the Onward books and if you had time , then single out all the NZ engineers then look into their files . The answer may well be there , as there is a good number of examples to look at .
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 15-05-21, 09:00 PM
Tinto's Avatar
Tinto Tinto is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Gisborne, New Zealand
Posts: 2,904
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jean-paul Vermersch View Post
Bonsoir à tous, Hello everybody.

I live very close to Arras in France.
I actually have 2 cap badges from NZ engineers.
A larger one of 31mm in diameter and a smaller one of 23mm in diameter.
The largest is a New Zealand tunneleer. It comes from New Zealand....
They dug the galleries connecting the old quarries under the city of Arras before the offensive of April 9, 1917 and many others in the region, not to mention the mine tunnels ....

Sorry i don't find the title...

J-P.
Hello Jean-Paul,
Thanks for sharing your badges. My wife and I visited the Arras quarries in 2008.
Kind Regards,
John
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 15-04-22, 09:37 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 293
Default

Thanks to the author of the new book on the New Zealand Engineers Tunnelling company (who provided the orders) we now have a little more insight into badges worn by this unit.

Once again history has left us with speculation!
The word 'similar' is mentioned to describe the badge issued to the company. The routine order used it for a reason. The writer didn't say 'same' or 'larger than' (the TF NZE badge) which would have made it much easier for us 105 years later.

In my view the existing TF NZE badge is too small and the larger version is a simple practicality, especially in the dim lighting of tunnels. It would seem that tunnellers wore both large and small size cap/hat badges in France.

I am of the view that the large size NZE badge was ordered by and made for the NZE Tunnelling company in England before they left for France in 1916. Simply because they needed badges for the men and not because they wanted a special tunnellers distinction. While I haven't measured the badge I bet it is the same diameter as a common coin of the time, maybe a penny?

Barry
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Tunnellers badge.jpg (42.8 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg Tunnellers badges.jpg (50.3 KB, 21 views)
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 15-04-22, 09:56 PM
woronora woronora is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 278
Default

Thanks Barry for this information. Interesting that the men were not to wear collar badges. Any thoughts why not?

Cheers

John
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 20-04-22, 08:21 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 293
Default

My suggestion for the men not wearing collar badges would be due to status.
The higher the rank the more badges allowed to be worn.
Barry
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 13-06-22, 12:42 PM
mad4thcef's Avatar
mad4thcef mad4thcef is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 440
Default Question

What are the dimensions of the small NZE tunnelers badge in comparison to the large badge.

In millimetres please!

Also did Stokes and Sons make the engineers badge?

Thanks for sharing!
__________________
"Some cause happiness wherever they go, others,whenever they go!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 13-06-22, 05:30 PM
milcollectorblue milcollectorblue is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Lee-on-the-Solent, Hampshire, UK
Posts: 92
Default

Rob, see Post 16 above regarding dimensions

Quote:
Originally Posted by mad4thcef View Post
What are the dimensions of the small NZE tunnelers badge in comparison to the large badge.

In millimetres please!

Also did Stokes and Sons make the engineers badge?

Thanks for sharing!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:39 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.