First type RAF pilot wings ARF

[Garth Thompson]

Just wondering what the wing guys think about this wing. Purported to be the first type RAF pilot wings. There are some differences from either the Toronto or English versions illustrated in Carrol's EAGLES RECALLED.

Garth

[Mike_2817]

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research...ots-wings.aspx

[Garth Thompson]

Thanks I know the difference between RFC and RAF wings but the ARF wings did exist ref Carrol's Eagles Recalled Chaper 11 page 66 - 69. The question was are the ones I pictured a period example or copies.
Garth

[Mike_2817]

Well thats what the RAF Museum say the first RAF Wings looked like.

Not read the book you referance, but does it show an example in wear? One referance does not a fact make and that equally applies to Service Museums!

The ARF Script just looks wrong to me.

[Phil2M]

Wouldn't ARF read RAF as the R is the dominant letter in the script?

[arrestingu]

Hi Garth, Not keen at all on the example shown, material and backing looks wrong. Your style is heavily copied.though if I recall a batch of these did surface in a tailors old stock in the 90s...considering real ones are like hens teeth...I saw a lot of your style selling at an arms fair for £50 a go...would need to handle to make a 100% judgement.
I enclose an original wing belonging to a Lieut Kibby.for your interest.
cheers
Steve

[Garth Thompson]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

Well thats what the RAF Museum say the first RAF Wings looked like.

Not read the book you referance, but does it show an example in wear? One referance does not a fact make and that equally applies to Service Museums!

The ARF Script just looks wrong to me.

Carrol's book shows the ARF wing in use. There is a period photo of Brigadier General E.C.Gerrand, DSO, wearing one. The Carroll book Eagles Recalled is considered pretty much the final word on RAF and Commonwealth wings from 1913 - 1945.

[Garth Thompson]

Originally Posted by arrestingu

Hi Garth, Not keen at all on the example shown, material and backing looks wrong. Your style is heavily copied.though if I recall a batch of these did surface in a tailors old stock in the 90s...considering real ones are like hens teeth...I saw a lot of your style selling at an arms fair for £50 a go...would need to handle to make a 100% judgement.
I enclose an original wing belonging to a Lieut Kibby.for your interest.
cheers
Steve

Steve,
Thanks mate, I'm not keen on it either. It isn't like the pictured examples.
Garth

[SAS1]

Hand & Lock in London unearthed a stock of them some years ago and they were (maybe still are) available on their website.

They did make them during the WW1 period, and although they cannot confirm the date of manufacture of the ones found they do confirm they are manufactured in the original style and materials.

[Garth Thompson]

Originally Posted by SAS1

Hand & Lock in London unearthed a stock of them some years ago and they were (maybe still are) available on their website.

They did make them during the WW1 period, and although they cannot confirm the date of manufacture of the ones found they do confirm they are manufactured in the original style and materials.

Thanks for the reply. They still offer them for 17 pounds.

[oldlincolnian]

Steve, Chris here..... these wings came from me (and are now back in my possession). They are very similar to the Hand & Lock pattern but having both in hand I can see (as could anyone else with their eyes open <s>) that there are differences. As for just making comparisons only to a style shown in book printed 16 years ago when they were first being talked about and saying that because they don't match that, that they are not good is slightly more than humorous. Have any of you guys ever looked at the variety of RFC and RAF wings? Many are made in tailor shops, some supplied officially, some not. The materials and patterns in use at individual tailors were broadly similar but there is no exact uniformity or mass production. They were in use a very short time and usually if you manage to find one, its probably in extraordinarily good condition as they were removed shortly after issue. These wings show definite signs of use. It is well documented that the ARF logo was used, even on official letterhead, if you care to wade through the national archives, but again only within a very narrow window. These came to me from the perfect source a long time ago...which I am willing to discuss.....and I am not known for dealing in fakes.

I think that it merits saying that if one is into collecting rare items one has to know one's stuff in a broad sense, to both acquire good material and to know what is bad. Sisters of this badge have been examined and happily placed inside some very significant collections (including the stated author) who satisfied themselves of their standing.

Knowledge is power. Garth's loss.

[SAS1]

Instead of putting others down Old Lincolnian, why not try and educate. As you seem to have quickly put yourself on a pedestal why not share your vast experience, knowledge and sources??

If these wings are so good, why did you let them go. If they come from a good source, why not tell? If knowledge is power, try and impart it. Not everyone on this site is as expert at you. Instead of the mystery, explain.

That is what this site is about. Learn that, you'll last longer.

[Wingnut]

I am with arrestingu. Looks like well made modern copy. I don't like the back at all. That looks nothing like wings made 90 years ago. Best regards.

[RCAF_Mike]

Originally Posted by Wingnut

I am with arrestingu. Looks like well made modern copy. I don't like the back at all. That looks nothing like wings made 90 years ago. Best regards.

I'm with you, I don't like the look of the rear of this badge.......I've handled many well made reproductions bearing the same characteristic backing