Small Pattern Border Regiment Cap Badge - KK 644

[2747andy]

Julian,
calm down mate .. Back to the small border badge posted at the start of the thread, I think it is safe to say that they were worn c.1901/2 to 1905, lugged pre 1903 and then slidered?

As for RFC, they do come with sliders, but they are scarce!

Andy

[KLR]

Andy, I'm not sure what you're getting at !? All I'm saying is that badges with lugs were worn in India up to 1914. Badges with sliders were worn elsewhere from 1903/6.

(If there are RFC badges with sliders, they are "unofficial".)
J

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by KLR

Andy, I'm not sure what you're getting at !? All I'm saying is that badges with lugs were worn in India up to 1914. Badges with sliders were worn elsewhere from 1903/6.

(If there are RFC badges with sliders, they are "unofficial".)
J

Julian,

I'm not "getting at" anything and please don't get the wrong impression, your research is always refreshing and most welcomed!

"Never" is a term one should use with caution in this hobby of ours, cos sure as eggs are eggs, someone or thing comes along to throw doubt on it!

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Julian,

I'm not "getting at" anything and please don't get the wrong impression, your research is always refreshing and most welcomed!

"Never" is a term one should use with caution in this hobby of ours, cos sure as eggs are eggs, someone or thing comes along to throw doubt on it!

Just as Devil's Advocate Andy, could that not be an Army and Navy Stores supplied commercial badge? If so it would have the necessary appearance of longevity but as an unissued, commercially produced badge (which did exist) it would also be unofficial.

[21L]

Great thread! According to the archived "Land Forces of Britain,
the Empire and Commonwealth" by T.F Mills, the 1st Bn Border Regt. arrived back from S.A in May 1902 and spent 4 years at Plymouth. In 1906 they were posted to Gib for two years.

The 2nd Bn was the 'overseas' batallion at the time of VR's death and had been at Bareilly, Northern India since 1899. They moved to Burma in 1902, and then onto S.A in 1905 until returning to Sheffield in 1907.

Gar

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Just as Devil's Advocate Andy, could that not be an Army and Navy Stores supplied commercial badge? If so it would have the necessary appearance of longevity but as an unissued, commercially produced badge (which did exist) it would also be unofficial.

Toby,
God only knows where it was sourced, it has however seen some genuine use I'm fairly sure!

Andy

[Fatherofthree]

And here it is.

A lugged KC small Border badge.

Cap badge 1902 - 05 KK 644.jpg Rear of KK 644.jpg

Julian: Thank you very much for supplying this information, as always interesting and educational.

Regards
Brian

[2747andy]

Brian,
very nice, now that's another I need to source!

Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Toby,
God only knows where it was sourced, it has however seen some genuine use I'm fairly sure!

Andy

Yes, like you I agree that it has seen some genuine use, but the point is that if it was commercially sourced then it is 'unofficial' as Julian said. He might be being purist, but it is only fair to say that his point regarding official (i.e. documentary) evidence of pattern issues and changes being paramount, when considering provenance, is sound.

I have always thought that the Border Regiment had a particularly attractive badge.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Fatherofthree

And here it is.

A lugged KC small Border badge.

Attachment 63249 Attachment 63250

Julian: Thank you very much for supplying this information, as always interesting and educational.

Regards
Brian

Brian thanks for showing that one.

Rgds,

Thomas.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Fatherofthree

When your badge was replaced by the larger KK 645, the first issues of the new pattern have similar battle honours as KK 644, but not the same distribution on the arms of the cross.

Also, I believe this is around the time that SA war honours were first introduced on badges, (I do stand to be corrected on this) hence, a new pattern of 645 was introduced, which redistibuted the battle honours and now included Relief of Ladysmith and 1899 - 02 on the lower arm of the cross.

Regards
Brian

The "first issues of the new pattern have similar battle honours as KK 644, but not the same distribution on the arms of the cross." badge, which I've also never seen before, looks to be illustrated in Churchill "History of the British Army Infantry Collar Badge" as Fig. 951. It has the same size star as on KK645, but with the smaller size cross as in 644. Unfortunately the image isn't clear enought to read the battle honours.

KK645 comes with two different sets of battle honour distributions, which I think lasted until the introduction of the QC badge in the 1950's.

Rgds,

Thomas.

[sappersson]

Andy
Clanfield Militaria have one on there site at 200 Pounds and I think Dead Spartan sold one awhile back at 220, but I could be wrong on that. I've been after one myself but at those prices I'm holding back for other items.

Cheers Paul.

[2747andy]

Paul,
thanks for that, I think I can hold back too at that price

Andy

[mtrpltpara]

Seen a couple of these small Borders lately, one priced at £120, but both have non voided centres. With the honour Arroyo Dos Molinos surely they should be voided? Spurious badges?
Regards,
Bill.

[Parabellum]

Originally Posted by mtrpltpara

Seen a couple of these small Borders lately, one priced at £120, but both have non voided centres. With the honour Arroyo Dos Molinos surely they should be voided? Spurious badges?
Regards,
Bill.

I wouldn't buy a solid one.
Geoff Newman has recently sold a nice one which I almost bought, but at £175, with replaced slider, I decided against it.