Unknown Pagri Flash, possibly Devonshire Regt.

[High Wood]

I have a possible name for the soldier in this photograph in that, whilst unnamed, it came with other photographs from the same family, that have both a surname and an address.

Apart from the pagri flash, there are no other regimental distinctions visible.

The man in question served with the Leicestershire Regiment, the Leicestershire Yeomanry and the 16th (Yeomanry) battalion, Devonshire Regiment. Of these only the 16th (Yeomanry) battalion, Devonshire Regiment served in Egypt.

Could this be a Devonshire Regiment pagri?

[Alan O]

The wound stripe came in AO July 1916 so that ties in with the 16th still being in the Middle east prior to 1918.

[cbuehler]

Not the known type of regular Devons pagri flash which I show here, but it could possibly be unique to the 16th Bn. Unless a surviving example positively identified in color could be found, we may never be sure.

CB

[caladonia]

Hello there

The booklet "Infantry Identification Schemes 1917", has the 16th Devons wearing a rectangle, split red/blue, with a central yellow stripe, worn on the left sleeve, perhaps earlier worn on the topi?

William

[caladonia]

Hello again

I've done a bit more searching and according to the book "WW1 British Battle Insignia" the 16th batt wore, on the left of the topi a red rectangle with a central yellow stripe.
This could be the patch shown in the OPs photo.

William

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by caladonia

Hello again

I've done a bit more searching and according to the book "WW1 British Battle Insignia" the 16th batt wore, on the left of the topi a red rectangle with a central yellow stripe.
This could be the patch shown in the OPs photo.

William

Brilliant! I think this is probably what is shown.

CB

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by caladonia

Hello again

I've done a bit more searching and according to the book "WW1 British Battle Insignia" the 16th batt wore, on the left of the topi a red rectangle with a central yellow stripe.
This could be the patch shown in the OPs photo.

William

William.

many thanks for finding this information for me. It is appreciated. I am now pretty certain that the soldier is John Beaumont Siddons, as other post cards that came with this one can be traced to the Siddons family of Stamford Street, Ratby, Leicestershire. John B Siddons was killed in action on the 2nd September 1918, whilst serving with the 16th (Yeomanry) battalion, Devonshire Regt.

His younger brother, David Hermon Siddons, was killed in action on the 14th July 1916, whilst serving with the 7th Btn, Leicestershire Regiment.

[grey_green_acorn]

I have this image taken I think at the Devon and Dorset Museum and annotated by me Devons Pagri.

Tim

[Rob Miller]

This has come up before, the 1917 booklet reference "Infantry Identification Schemes 1917" is interesting, could we have some more information on that please, was it published in 1917?

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...vonshire+pagri

Rob

[Rob Miller]

Post 83 of this thread, Griff did some lovely artwork for the 16th Devonshires, but its possible a simplified badge was used later on?

Rob

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...+helmet&page=6

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

This has come up before, the 1917 booklet reference "Infantry Identification Schemes 1917" is interesting, could we have some more information on that please, was it published in 1917?

Appears to have been published in 2016 ?

Hibbard, Mike; Gibbs, Gary (2016). Infantry Divisions, Identification Schemes 1917 (1 ed.). Wokingham: The Military History Society.

.

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

I have this image taken I think at the Devon and Dorset Museum and annotated by me Devons Pagri.

Tim

These grosgrain flashes made from rayon strips are considerably later than that of the photo.

[grey_green_acorn]

It was the colours that might be of interest?

“Grosgrain" is commonly used to refer to a heavy, stiff ribbon of silk or nylon woven via taffeta weave using a heavy weft, which results in distinct transverse ribs. Historically, grosgrain was made from wool, silk, or a combination of fibres such as silk and wool or silk and mohair.

Tim

[Rob Miller]

I had to look up Rayon, its not a name I'm familier with, made from wood pulp and first manufactured before WW1 so not impossible, I suppose early medal ribbons were made from silk, is there a way of telling the difference?

Rob

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

I had to look up Rayon, its not a name I'm familier with, made from wood pulp and first manufactured before WW1 so not impossible, I suppose early medal ribbons were made from silk, is there a way of telling the difference?

Rob

If one has an example of both rayon and silk ribbon in hand, the difference will become apparent. Rayon or cellulose is sometimes called artificial silk. Silk is rather delicate and not used for these flashes.
These rayon woven flashes seem to have appeared in the late 1930s, but possibly slightly earlier. The most commonly encountered are RAF, RE and a few others. Many of these type seem to have been made and approved, but not actually worn. Infantry battalions overseas, especially India, more often wore other locally made flashes in WW1, through the interwar years and into WW2. A situation somewhat similar to the converted helmet plate centers in late Victorian times.

CB