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  #1  
Old 16-03-18, 12:15 PM
loupie1961 loupie1961 is offline
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Default 2nd NZEF NZ Corps of Signals Formation Sign

I have got in my collection a Battledress Blouse badged toe a Major of the NZ Corps of Signals serving with the 2nd NZ Division. The NZ Corps of Signals sign stitched to the sleeve is a white over blue square, and this is somehow puzzling, since Divisional Troops in the 2nd NZ Division usually wore a circle (Cavalry, Engineers, Intelligence and so on). New Zealand Army Distinguishing Patches 1911-1991 by Malcolm Thomas and Cliff Lord maintains that the sign of the NZ Signals in the 2nd NZ Division was a blue and white circle, while it pictorially represents it as a white over blue square. I wonder whether the square could be the sign of the 4th NZ Brigade Signals, but I guess Signals would operate rather at a Divisional level. What's your advise, fellow collectors? Thank you in advance for your help!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BD_NZ_Signals_titles.jpg (99.0 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg BD_NZ_Signals_titles_2.jpg (54.2 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg BD_NZ_Signals_sidecap_badge.jpg (61.9 KB, 20 views)
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  #2  
Old 17-03-18, 02:04 AM
Quicksilver Quicksilver is offline
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Location: Feilding NZ
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The small square white over blue was worn in Italy in WW2. The white over blue circle Divisional Signals patch was also worn. From what research I have done (which was about 25 years ago) I think the square was a continuation of the type 3 patches but worn a little later and not replacing the Div Sigs patch. While I have seen photos of it being worn by 4 Bde Signals I have not seen anything to state it was official as far as I can remember. The 3rd photo you show of a NZ Corps of Signals headdress badge was not worn overseas by 2 NZ Div Signals. They wore the 2 Div Cap badge. They badge you show was worn by 1, 4 and 5 Divisional Signals in New Zealand. B Force may have worn it in Fiji early on, but I don't have access to all my notes.
I will ask Malcolm Thomas if he recalls the reason for the square signals patch. To date I don't recall seeing any collectors amendments to the patch system since Malcolm and I wrote the book, but there may well be information out with other members that conclusively shows details of the patches which differ from our research.
Attached is a copy of the page you refer to.
Rgds Quicksilver aka Cliff Lord



Quote:
Originally Posted by loupie1961 View Post
I have got in my collection a Battledress Blouse badged toe a Major of the NZ Corps of Signals serving with the 2nd NZ Division. The NZ Corps of Signals sign stitched to the sleeve is a white over blue square, and this is somehow puzzling, since Divisional Troops in the 2nd NZ Division usually wore a circle (Cavalry, Engineers, Intelligence and so on). New Zealand Army Distinguishing Patches 1911-1991 by Malcolm Thomas and Cliff Lord maintains that the sign of the NZ Signals in the 2nd NZ Division was a blue and white circle, while it pictorially represents it as a white over blue square. I wonder whether the square could be the sign of the 4th NZ Brigade Signals, but I guess Signals would operate rather at a Divisional level. What's your advise, fellow collectors? Thank you in advance for your help!
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  #3  
Old 17-03-18, 04:15 AM
Quicksilver Quicksilver is offline
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[QUOTE=Quicksilver;438246]The small square white over blue was worn in Italy in WW2. The white over blue circle Divisional Signals patch was also worn. From what research I have done (which was about 25 years ago) I think the square was a continuation of the type 3 patches but worn a little later and not replacing the Div Sigs patch. While I have seen photos of it being worn by 4 Bde Signals I have not seen anything to state it was official as far as I can remember. The 3rd photo you show of a NZ Corps of Signals headdress badge was not worn overseas by 2 NZ Div Signals. They wore the 2 Div Cap badge. They badge you show was worn by 1, 4 and 5 Divisional Signals in New Zealand. B Force may have worn it in Fiji early on, but I don't have access to all my notes.
I will ask Malcolm Thomas if he recalls the reason for the square signals patch. To date I don't recall seeing any collectors amendments to the patch system since Malcolm and I wrote the book, but there may well be information out with other members that conclusively shows details of the patches which differ from our research.
Attached is a copy of the page you refer to.
Just received the following email from Malcolm Thomas my co-author:
Quote
Cliff
I am thinking this assumption is correct. I looked at one of the pages of Sigs patches you sold me and it has the NZ Tank Sqn square worn in NZ and also another square labelled non-divisional and the circular non-divisional patch.

It is a slight mystery but when 4th NZ Bde was infantry their formation sign was a red square. When they switched to armoured I guess the support units could have worn squares signs in Arm of Service colours as the armoured regts had their black berets with red badge backing.

This would likely explain the green square that is also attributed to recce units in 4 NZ Armd Bde even though it should be Div Cav who wore a green circle instead.

No real proof of all this though.
Unquote.
Hope this helps.

Rgds
Quicksilver aka Cliff Lord
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File Type: jpg img209.jpg (65.6 KB, 15 views)
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  #4  
Old 17-03-18, 11:12 AM
loupie1961 loupie1961 is offline
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[QUOTE=Quicksilver;438248]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
The small square white over blue was worn in Italy in WW2. The white over blue circle Divisional Signals patch was also worn. From what research I have done (which was about 25 years ago) I think the square was a continuation of the type 3 patches but worn a little later and not replacing the Div Sigs patch. While I have seen photos of it being worn by 4 Bde Signals I have not seen anything to state it was official as far as I can remember. The 3rd photo you show of a NZ Corps of Signals headdress badge was not worn overseas by 2 NZ Div Signals. They wore the 2 Div Cap badge. They badge you show was worn by 1, 4 and 5 Divisional Signals in New Zealand. B Force may have worn it in Fiji early on, but I don't have access to all my notes.
I will ask Malcolm Thomas if he recalls the reason for the square signals patch. To date I don't recall seeing any collectors amendments to the patch system since Malcolm and I wrote the book, but there may well be information out with other members that conclusively shows details of the patches which differ from our research.
Attached is a copy of the page you refer to.
Just received the following email from Malcolm Thomas my co-author:
Quote
Cliff
I am thinking this assumption is correct. I looked at one of the pages of Sigs patches you sold me and it has the NZ Tank Sqn square worn in NZ and also another square labelled non-divisional and the circular non-divisional patch.

It is a slight mystery but when 4th NZ Bde was infantry their formation sign was a red square. When they switched to armoured I guess the support units could have worn squares signs in Arm of Service colours as the armoured regts had their black berets with red badge backing.

This would likely explain the green square that is also attributed to recce units in 4 NZ Armd Bde even though it should be Div Cav who wore a green circle instead.

No real proof of all this though.
Unquote.
Hope this helps.

Rgds
Quicksilver aka Cliff Lord
Now, that's a surprise! Nice to meet you, Cliff! As a matter of fact, the order of battle of the 2nd NZ Division according to Wikipedia (and the New Zealand Officiali History) gives 4 Squadron, 2 NZ Divisional Signals as belonging to the 4 Armoured Brigade, therefore making it perfectly understandable that a square sign should be worn. As for the side cap, I am definitively not sure whether it belonged to the same owner of the BD blouse, still blouse and side cap were sold by a NZ seller as a single lot. Thank you and all the best, L.
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  #5  
Old 18-03-18, 10:10 AM
loupie1961 loupie1961 is offline
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[QUOTE=Quicksilver;438248]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
The small square white over blue was worn in Italy in WW2. The white over blue circle Divisional Signals patch was also worn. From what research I have done (which was about 25 years ago) I think the square was a continuation of the type 3 patches but worn a little later and not replacing the Div Sigs patch. While I have seen photos of it being worn by 4 Bde Signals I have not seen anything to state it was official as far as I can remember. The 3rd photo you show of a NZ Corps of Signals headdress badge was not worn overseas by 2 NZ Div Signals. They wore the 2 Div Cap badge. They badge you show was worn by 1, 4 and 5 Divisional Signals in New Zealand. B Force may have worn it in Fiji early on, but I don't have access to all my notes.
I will ask Malcolm Thomas if he recalls the reason for the square signals patch. To date I don't recall seeing any collectors amendments to the patch system since Malcolm and I wrote the book, but there may well be information out with other members that conclusively shows details of the patches which differ from our research.
Attached is a copy of the page you refer to.
Just received the following email from Malcolm Thomas my co-author:
Quote
Cliff
I am thinking this assumption is correct. I looked at one of the pages of Sigs patches you sold me and it has the NZ Tank Sqn square worn in NZ and also another square labelled non-divisional and the circular non-divisional patch.

It is a slight mystery but when 4th NZ Bde was infantry their formation sign was a red square. When they switched to armoured I guess the support units could have worn squares signs in Arm of Service colours as the armoured regts had their black berets with red badge backing.

This would likely explain the green square that is also attributed to recce units in 4 NZ Armd Bde even though it should be Div Cav who wore a green circle instead.

No real proof of all this though.
Unquote.
Hope this helps.

Rgds
Quicksilver aka Cliff Lord
Hello Cliff, is there any chance you could produce a photo of the 4 Armoured Brigade NZ Signals signs actually being worn? I'd love to have a definite evidence!
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  #6  
Old 18-03-18, 06:32 PM
Quicksilver Quicksilver is offline
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Location: Feilding NZ
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I have recently moved from Auckland to Feilding and currently don't have full access to my photographic collection. However I will have a look soon and see what I can find.
Quicksilver


[QUOTE=loupie1961;438366]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post

Hello Cliff, is there any chance you could produce a photo of the 4 Armoured Brigade NZ Signals signs actually being worn? I'd love to have a definite evidence!
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  #7  
Old 19-03-18, 07:51 AM
Quicksilver Quicksilver is offline
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Here is a photo of Bob Suckling who served in NZCS. He is pictured here in Matelica Italy in 1945. Note he has the small square white over blue patch. I do not know if he was in 4 Amd Bde or not.
Rgds Quicksilver
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  #8  
Old 20-03-18, 08:33 AM
loupie1961 loupie1961 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
Here is a photo of Bob Suckling who served in NZCS. He is pictured here in Matelica Italy in 1945. Note he has the small square white over blue patch. I do not know if he was in 4 Amd Bde or not.
Rgds Quicksilver
Great Cliff, right what the doctor said!
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