43rd (Monmouthshire) Light Infantry

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

As a result of recent correspondence on this site concerning Oxfordshire Light Infantry/Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry collar badges, I have been attempting to match-up the correct badges and shoulder titles in the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Museum collection. The position concerning the 2nd regular battalion (the 52nd Light Infantry) would seem to be fairly clear cut, but what about the 1st Battalion – the former Monmouthshire Light Infantry?

I assume that, from 1881 until 1908 the 1st Battalion wore “Oxford” shoulder titles (I have never seen an “Oxfordshire” title), but when did they cease wearing “Monmouth” shoulder titles? And what is the significance of these Monmouth/Monmouthshire titles from my own collection. Are they Yeomanry items? As a wild guess, I would suggest that, until 1881, the 43rd Light Infantry wore Monmouth shoulder titles, paired with bugle horn collar badges as shown here.

Surely metal shoulder titles as we know them did not arrive on the scene until quite late in the Volunteer era. Certainly, pre 1881, there would have been no metal shoulder titles worn and thereafter, until the khaki tunics of the Sudan and ultimately the Boer War, on what mode of dress would metal titles be worn ? The Monmouthshire and Monmouth titles illustrated in this thread surely date from WW1. Of course, I have VB metal titles in white metal and I have late (very late) Victorian brass titles but the vast majority of brass titles date from post 1908. If I have missed something here I would welcome enlightenment. None of us are too old to learn. Regards. David

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Stanley_C_Jenkins

As a result of recent correspondence on this site concerning Oxfordshire Light Infantry/Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry collar badges, I have been attempting to match-up the correct badges and shoulder titles in the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Museum collection. The position concerning the 2nd regular battalion (the 52nd Light Infantry) would seem to be fairly clear cut, but what about the 1st Battalion – the former Monmouthshire Light Infantry?

I assume that, from 1881 until 1908 the 1st Battalion wore “Oxford” shoulder titles (I have never seen an “Oxfordshire” title), but when did they cease wearing “Monmouth” shoulder titles? And what is the significance of these Monmouth/Monmouthshire titles from my own collection. Are they Yeomanry items? As a wild guess, I would suggest that, until 1881, the 43rd Light Infantry wore Monmouth shoulder titles, paired with bugle horn collar badges as shown here.

These titles (surmounted by 'T' and a number) were worn by the Monmouthshire Regt (previously Rifle Volunteers), a TF Regt formed in 1908. There were 3 First Line battalions and unusually each had its own distinct cap badge, although they were all variations of the Welsh Dragon. After 1922 the 1st Batt's badge was redesigned to incorporate its WW1 honours on a wreath surrounding a dragon, in a similar way to the Rifle Brigade.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

David,

Metal "Oxford" shoulder titles were worn on red tunics by the 2nd Volunteer Battalion of the Oxfordshire Light Infantry during the late Victorian period, and Simkin prints suggest that they were also worn by members of the 2nd regular Battalion. They would not have been worn during World War I because the regiment had then become The Oxfordshire & Bucknghamshire Light Infantry, with "Oxf & Bucks" shoulder titles.

My question concerned the shoulder titles worn by the 1st Battalion prior to 1908 - "Oxford" or "Monmouth". I suspect it was "Oxford", although I have not yet found any photographs to confirm this supposition.

Toby,

I understand about the Monmouthshire Regiment wearing "Monmouthshire" shoulder titles, but have been unable to find any information about the plain "Monmouth" title.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

These titles (surmounted by 'T' and a number) were worn by the Monmouthshire Regt (previously Rifle Volunteers), a TF Regt formed in 1908. There were 3 First Line battalions and unusually each had its own distinct cap badge, although they were all variations of the Welsh Dragon. After 1922 the 1st Batt's badge was redesigned to incorporate its WW1 honours on a wreath surrounding a dragon, in a similar way to the Rifle Brigade.

Toby,

To clarify despite all the ebay fakes (and Coxes claims) only the Officers badges were different. The ORs badges consisted of the dragon on its own and were w/m for the 1st bn and brass for the others.

Alan

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

Toby,

To clarify despite all the ebay fakes (and Coxes claims) only the Officers badges were different. The ORs badges consisted of the dragon on its own and were w/m for the 1st bn and brass for the others.

Alan

Thanks Alan, I was not aware of that. I recall that the Brecknocks Batt of the SWB had a similar Dragon badge but with a scroll under.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Stanley_C_Jenkins

David,

Metal "Oxford" shoulder titles were worn on red tunics by the 2nd Volunteer Battalion of the Oxfordshire Light Infantry during the late Victorian period, and Simkin prints suggest that they were also worn by members of the 2nd regular Battalion. They would not have been worn during World War I because the regiment had then become The Oxfordshire & Bucknghamshire Light Infantry, with "Oxf & Bucks" shoulder titles.

My question concerned the shoulder titles worn by the 1st Battalion prior to 1908 - "Oxford" or "Monmouth". I suspect it was "Oxford", although I have not yet found any photographs to confirm this supposition.

Toby,

I understand about the Monmouthshire Regiment wearing "Monmouthshire" shoulder titles, but have been unable to find any information about the plain "Monmouth" title.

I doubt very much that the 1st Batt (43rd) wore a Monmouthh title after 1881 but I will be interested to see what others say. My guess is that the Monmouth title was either an old Rifle Volunteers one (most likely) or just an early variant of the TF Regt (less likely).

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

When were brass shoulder titles introduced?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Stanley_C_Jenkins

When were brass shoulder titles introduced?

A good question and I am not sure. Nor do I have Ray Westlakes book to hand to see what he says. My guess would be after the 2nd Boer War and possibly as late as 1907 when SD was first introduiced as I think it was intended that they be utilitarian and worn on most uniforms, ergo SD, Full Dress, Indian Pattern Frocks, Tropical Whites and Khaki Drill.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

It appears that metal shoulder titles were introduced in, or shortly after, 1881, but they were not generally adopted until 1907, when clothing regulations stipulate that they should be worn on shoulder straps.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Stanley_C_Jenkins

It appears that metal shoulder titles were introduced in, or shortly after, 1881, but they were not generally adopted until 1907, when clothing regulations stipulate that they should be worn on shoulder straps.

Thanks Stanley, a good guess on my part then re 1907. Incidentally, the First Boer war took place in 1881 and I seem to recall that some of the regiments, who at that time were still in scarlet, wore brass shoulder titles on their shoulder straps. This was not universal though, as many wore the title embroidered in white, which later was cut off and attached to the sides of the foreign service helmet (most famously by the Lancashire Fusiliers).