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  #16  
Old 05-10-20, 07:00 PM
NewRNcollector NewRNcollector is offline
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Pete,
thanks for the reply....very interesting!
I didn't even know about such tallies, so this is good/bad news.
It is very pretty though.

I have a blank tally with no name or anything on it....I was told that these were used in WW1 for ships....H.M.S. for WW2 I guess.
Is this true or have I got just a nice piece of ribbon?

thank you very much for your help.
Paul
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  #17  
Old 05-10-20, 07:01 PM
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Default RN Cap Tallies. Help sought.

Paul

Here is a typical example of a child's sailor suit of about 1900. Unfortunately you can't see the cap tally on this one because of the angle he's wearing his hat at! But there will have been one. The style varied from manufacturer to manufacturer. Most went for a stylised form of name and some even included flags at either end of the name - often a pair of White Ensigns or a White Ensign and a Union Flag.

Pete
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  #18  
Old 05-10-20, 07:04 PM
NewRNcollector NewRNcollector is offline
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Pete,
forgot to add...YES PLEASE to the further information.
I got into this collection solely because I didn't understand it...and am learning quickly.

Did you see my post about the Motor Launch tallies I have? the actual numbers are quite high...surely there weren't that many in operation! do you have any idea of how many there were and when they were in operation?

Thanks in advance,
Paul
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  #19  
Old 05-10-20, 07:06 PM
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He looks cute! many thanks for sharing this....I expect others who have read this will think the same.

Great help!
Paul
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  #20  
Old 05-10-20, 08:06 PM
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Default RN Cap Tallies. Help sought.

Hi again Paul

I'm afraid that your piece of blank ribbon is just that - a piece of blank ribbon!

I'll tell you about the ML tallies later if I may.

I'll tell you a bit about the history of the RN cap tally first if I may - well a first instalment at least!

Sailors were wearing cap ribbons by the 1840s. On the 13th october 1850 a contract was awarded for a new pattern of black hat for ratings - the first to normally bear a ship's name. At this time ships names were normally painted on cap ribbons. Contemporary photographs of ratings suggest that cap ribbons were often much wider than those in use today and that the ship's name appeared in large lettering without the 'H.M.S.' prefix. Some captains, at their own expense, had the cap ribbons embroidered instead of painted.

A cap tally of 1852 in the possession of the National Maritime Museum bears the name 'FOX' without the 'H.M.S.' prefix but with a depiction of a fox's head before and after the name. The tally is made of silk and the name of the ship and its emblem have been painted and gilded. The tally is 37mm wide. See image below.

It was not until 1857, when the first "Uniform Regulations for Petty Officers, Seamen and Boys" were published, that "hat ribbons bearing the ship's name" were officially recognised. Although the regulations did not specify how the ribbons were to be marked, it was customary for sailors to paint on the name of their ships in large capitals.

When the Royal Naval Reserve was first formed in 1859 ratings were not issued with any uniform. However, in 1864 they were issued with a blue uniform cap with a tally bearing the initials 'R.N.R.'

When gilt wire lettering was officially introduced in February 1868, it had already been adopted by Commander Philip R. Sharpe RN of H.M.S. Waterwitch, who had bought such ribbons from Thomas Stevens of Coventry and was issuing them to his ship's company at one shilling each (National Archive, Adm. 1/6045 No. A 399). The commander received permission for his stock to be taken on charge officially. In the same year ribbons with letters woven in silk were submitted for issue. The Controller of Victualling reported against their issue as an article of seaman's clothing and gilt woven ribbons were adopted for issue instead. These were initially only to stationary ships and ironclads , about 1 1/2 % of crew at first to be provided for (Index 18041 Admiralty Correspondence). The tally for the Stationary Coast Guard Training Vessel H.M.S. Humber, c.1876, is shown below.

I'll continue with the next bit later! Sorry if it's a bit boring!

Pete
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  #21  
Old 05-10-20, 10:23 PM
NewRNcollector NewRNcollector is offline
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Boring???
not at all....this is exactly what I was hoping for.
I didn't realise that ribbons went back so far...in old films the seamen seemed to wear straw hats...no ribbon. I had thought that they came in in the late 1800's.

I'll post some pictures which will show some of my concerns, which I think will help.


Best wishes,
Paul
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  #22  
Old 06-10-20, 10:39 AM
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Default RN Cap Tallies. Help sought.

Hi Paul

Time to properly answer your question about your Motor Launch tallies.

There were a LOT of MLs built during the Second World War! A breakdown is as follows: -

Fairmile A Motor Launch. Built 1939. 12 built.
Fairmile B Motor Launch. Built 1940-45. 1,284 built.
Harbour Defence Motor Launch. Built 1940-45. 486 built.
RAF Type 2 Whaleback. Built 1940-42. 70 buit.

Your tallies are for HMRML 495 and HMRML 529. The HMRML stands for HM Rescue Motor Launch. These were Fairmile B motor launches. The rescue launch variant had a small sickbay aft of the engine coaming and were numbered in the series RML 492 - 500 and RML 511 - 533.

A WORD OF WARNING. The only RML tallies that I have ever seen being sold are for 495 and 529. And they seem to turn up regularly all over the world. There seem to be lots of them about! I have very serious doubts about their being genuine. If you could post images of their front and backs I will give you my opinion of yours.

Pete
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  #23  
Old 06-10-20, 10:44 AM
NewRNcollector NewRNcollector is offline
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As a bit of background info. My wife's family were nearly all RN.
I attach a couple of pics of her great grandfather who was an Admiral.
His son also became an Admiral.

The one in the picture is seen on his wedding day and of the fleet review of 1914 in Singapore. The ship is HMS HERCULES.
Note the wedding guests...some sailors in uniform!

Whilst doing her family background research, The Admiral's father (Bruce) was an Ensign at the Battle of Trafalgar! upon return to England he was made up to Sub-Lt.
Admiral Sir Henry Bruce KCB RN was an Admiral between 1862 and 1948. The latest Admiral was a Vice Admiral and held a lot of posts in the Uk, Canada, Kenya and other foreign parts...mainly in a diplomatic role.

I hope this is of some interest...the pictures were taken in 1914
RN 035.jpg

RN 049.jpg

RN 051.jpg

RN 052.jpg

Last edited by NewRNcollector; 06-10-20 at 10:51 AM.
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  #24  
Old 06-10-20, 10:50 AM
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sorry missed the wedding photo..
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File Type: jpg RN 016.jpg (61.7 KB, 8 views)
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  #25  
Old 06-10-20, 11:16 AM
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Pete,
the two MRL's tallies...
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File Type: jpg aTest 003.jpg (43.6 KB, 9 views)
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  #26  
Old 06-10-20, 11:19 AM
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I also have a question about HMS PILOT...this is much thinner material and wider than the others..one and a half inches...the ribbon has a small tear.
Is this correct?
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File Type: jpg aTest 005.jpg (30.3 KB, 7 views)
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  #27  
Old 06-10-20, 11:22 AM
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as an extra note....the 529 looks like it is tarnished....more so than the 495, which is not brand new shiny.
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  #28  
Old 06-10-20, 11:22 AM
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Very interesting and good to see the photos.

My own family have long naval links too. My mother's family have been officers in the Navy or Marines since 1775 - and possibly before. My great-great-great-grandfather (think thats the right number of greats!) was also at Trafalgar. He was the senior Marine officer with Nelson's Fleet and went on to become a Major-General. He also commanded the Woolwich Division of Marines in the 1840s. His father was also an officer in the Marines and was present at the Battle of Bunker Hill in the American Revolutionary War. According to family legend in later life he was briefly responsible for the care of George III during his second bout of madnes. No idea if thats true!

My maternal grandfather was a Rear-Admiral. His three sons and my mother all joined the navy. My father was the first of his family to become a naval officer. He met and married my mother when she was an officer in the WRNS. Upon getting married my mother had to leave the WRNS - things were very different then! My father had quite an eventful service career - mainly in the Far East. He was on the cruiser HMS London when she tried to fight her way up the Yangtze River to rescue HMS Amethyst in 1949.

After their service in the RN two of my uncles transferred to the RNZN and had careers there. Two of my New Zealand cousins followed them into the RNZN and one of them is still serving.

And I'm the end of the line. I enjoyed my service but I don't think my young son will go into the navy. He's not in the least bit interested. Not that there will be any navy left for him to join by the time he's old enough to do so!

I've found some more information about your two MLs. They had fairly standard service lives and there is nothing to suggest any reason why so many tallies should be in existence for either of them.

529 was built by James Miller of St. Manance, Scotland. She commissioned on 14th July 1942 and was commanded by C.C. Campbell RNVR between 18th August 1942 and 22nd December 1945, when she was paid off.

495 was built by William Weatherhead of Cockenzie, Scotland. Ordered 27th August 1941 and commissioned in May 1942. I can't find any details off when she paid off.

Pete
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  #29  
Old 06-10-20, 11:34 AM
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Re the ML tallies. They both appear to be of 1960s manufacture. The lettering is also entirely wrong for a wartime tally.

Re the H.M.S. Pilot tally. There have only been four vessels called H.M.S. Pilot in the RN. The last was an 8-gun training brig launched in 1879 and sold in 1907. Only going by your photos and being unable to handle the tally itself, I'd say your tally could be right for this vessel. The letters appear to be thinner, which would be right for this period, and they appear to be in silk - which would also be correct.

Now I need to go and get some work done or I'll be in trouble when my wife gets home! I'll speak to you later.

Pete
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