Restrikes from worn die?

[Jelly Terror]

Here is a badge (please see badge 'A' and badge 'B') whose authenticity might be described as somewhat dubious. At first glance this variant appears to be poorly made; there are a number of aspects to it that might be considered signs of a bad badge. One of the most noticeable things about it is that the word 'QUEENS' [sic] has been fashioned without an apostrophe. This variant is the only one I am aware of which has this characteristic.

These badges both appear to have come from the same die, examples of which tend to have partially voided halos; poorly finished edges (particularly to the leg areas and between the flagstaff and neck); the detail of the Cross of St. George tends to be clumsily hewn; vent holes to the rear of the overlaid scroll are relatively small and circular, as seen on faked badges with so-called 'drilled' vent holes.

JT Q1a.jpgJT Q1b.jpgJT Q2a.jpgJT Q2b.jpg

Then there is badge 'C' (below) evidently from the same die, though in this instance the scroll (emblazoned with an apostrophised 'QUEEN'S [sic]) is not overlaid but is a single piece of tabbed white-metal.

JT Q3a.jpgJT Q3b.jpg

Whilst the attachment of the tabbed scroll on badge 'C' has not been executed particularly well (though well-constructed examples certainly exist) the general surface impression (or strike) made by the die is, in my opinion, far superior to that displayed by badges 'A' and 'B'.

Could it be then that badges 'A' and 'B' are restrikes made from the worn die of badge 'C'? Could it be that the manufacturer of badges 'A' and 'B' did not possess the skills necessary to construct badges with a tabbed scroll and therefore knocked out rougher versions, albeit with overlaid scrolls, and poorer-quality lettering with no apostrophe, and not so well finished edges?

Badges 'A' and 'B' are without question the poor relations of badge 'C'... dare I say it: the black sheep of the family

[magpie]

Don't know if this is of any use to you, out of my little somme finds bag.

[Phil2M]

Originally Posted by magpie

Don't know if this is of any use to you, out of my little somme finds bag.

Nice one, Andy Can't argue with that evidence.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by magpie

Don't know if this is of any use to you, out of my little somme finds bag.

Andy,

That is absolutely brilliant. Exactly the kind of stuff that makes our hobby, research, and this forum, so fascinating. Thank you for posting that. Completely blows my thoughts out of the water. Excellent!

I should add that during an off-forum discussion earlier today, it was put to me that badges 'A' and 'B' could very well have been produced by a manufacturer or sub-contractor engaged at a time of high, wartime demand, who might not normally have been in the business of making badges.

It was proposed that if 'A' and 'B' were said 'new' manufacture's earlier-produced badges, and it was decided post-production of the no-apostrophe variant to amend the absence of the apostrophe, then perhaps, rather than produce a whole new die, the anomaly was corrected by amending the scroll only, and then having it attached using tabs, in place of the overlaid, errant scroll.

It was also conjectured that the position of the tabs on the scroll of badge 'C' strongly indicate such a modification.

Regards to all.

IMG_9761.jpg IMG_9786.jpg

IMG_9762.jpg IMG_9785.jpg

IMG_9787.jpg. IMG_9788.jpg IMG_9789.jpg

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi JT

This is just a quick posting in reply to your most interesting thread, though I’m afraid you won’t be happy with what I’m about to say!

Firstly, whilst I would agree that your examples ‘A’ and ‘B’ are by the same manufacturer, I would actually say your ‘C’ is not and is, in fact, a different maker’s type. I’ve done a quick comparison, and as far as I can see there are a few differences that indicate ‘C’ does not have the same die characteristics as ‘A’ and ‘B’.

For instance, the bottom of the two pointed ends of the flag in ‘A’ and ‘B’ is clearly longer and narrower than in ‘C’. The front ear in ‘A’ and ‘B’ is not as wide as that in ‘C’, and that on ‘C’ seems to turn down slightly whereas the others look to be pretty straight. Further, where the front leg is bent across the flag, at the elbow, but on the inside edge, the angle in ‘A’ and ‘B’ is not the same as in ‘C’, where ‘C’ is more of a right angle. In addition, the two front hooves on ‘A’ and ‘B’ look smaller than on ‘C’, and where the hoof that touches the flag staff on ‘C’ it is lower down than the others. I also think the face on ‘C’ is shorter and flatter than on ‘A’ and ‘B’, the way the eyebrow curves seem different between then as well, and ‘C’ even looks like he has a bit of a toupee when compared with the others!

As to the vent/braze holes being small and round, I personally have no problem with the ones on your badges, though as you mention, in some circumstances similar drilled holes are found on fake Badges. I will actually get back to you on this point when I can, in specific relation to the ‘fat-cat’ Leicesters badges. But in the meantime, I’ll best leave things there for now!

Best regards

Martin

['Ticker' Riley]

Hello JT

I hope you don’t mind, but I’ve tried to do a bit of a composite image using two of your photos, in an attempt to highlight the features that I think exist between your ‘A’/‘B’ type and your ‘C’ variant:

In the above image, your ‘A’ is always on the left, and your ‘C’ on the right. I’ve tried to mark in red the differences I believe I can see in the face, ear and eyebrow, the bottom pointed end of the flag, the front hoof and the elbow. Like I say, I hope you don’t mind me doing this, only I thought this might help you to see what I mean?

Best regards

Martin

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

Hi JT

This is just a quick posting in reply to your most interesting thread, though I’m afraid you won’t be happy with what I’m about to say!

Firstly, whilst I would agree that your examples ‘A’ and ‘B’ are by the same manufacturer, I would actually say your ‘C’ is not and is, in fact, a different maker’s type. I’ve done a quick comparison, and as far as I can see there are a few differences that indicate ‘C’ does not have the same die characteristics as ‘A’ and ‘B’.

For instance, the bottom of the two pointed ends of the flag in ‘A’ and ‘B’ is clearly longer and narrower than in ‘C’. The front ear in ‘A’ and ‘B’ is not as wide as that in ‘C’, and that on ‘C’ seems to turn down slightly whereas the others look to be pretty straight. Further, where the front leg is bent across the flag, at the elbow, but on the inside edge, the angle in ‘A’ and ‘B’ is not the same as in ‘C’, where ‘C’ is more of a right angle. In addition, the two front hooves on ‘A’ and ‘B’ look smaller than on ‘C’, and where the hoof that touches the flag staff on ‘C’ it is lower down than the others. I also think the face on ‘C’ is shorter and flatter than on ‘A’ and ‘B’, the way the eyebrow curves seem different between then as well, and ‘C’ even looks like he has a bit of a toupee when compared with the others!

As to the vent/braze holes being small and round, I personally have no problem with the ones on your badges, though as you mention, in some circumstances similar drilled holes are found on fake Badges. I will actually get back to you on this point when I can, in specific relation to the ‘fat-cat’ Leicesters badges. But in the meantime, I’ll best leave things there for now!

Best regards

Martin

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

Hello JT

I hope you don’t mind, but I’ve tried to do a bit of a composite image using two of your photos, in an attempt to highlight the features that I think exist between your ‘A’/‘B’ type and your ‘C’ variant:

In the above image, your ‘A’ is always on the left, and your ‘C’ on the right. I’ve tried to mark in red the differences I believe I can see in the face, ear and eyebrow, the bottom pointed end of the flag, the front hoof and the elbow. Like I say, I hope you don’t mind me doing this, only I thought this might help you to see what I mean?

Best regards

Martin

Hmm... 'Ticker' Riley... trouble-maker! I knew we'd have problems with you, sunshine!

Seriously though, Martin, you couldn't be more wrong. These are EXACTLY the kinds of responses that I not only love, but wish we had more of on the forum. We should really go out of our way to encourage people to post their views, especially when they are opposing views, and not hold back through fear of contradiction, through polite conformity, and not to settle for convenient irresolution. I am a great believer in setting up a theory and then attempting to knock it down; good progress is rarely made by other means. I really do appreciate your considered response, the time and trouble you go to when submitting posts, and the level of thought you devote to replies before shooting me down in flames contributing to threads.

Okay, so what about these theories of yours, young Ticker? Here's what I think:

Whilst I acknowledge the differences you have so aptly highlighted, I would like to propose that these badges also bear similarities too striking to render persuasive the separate dies theory at this stage. I am not denying the possibility of different dies having been used here; I want to know the answer enough not to rule out anything at this point, but I'd be selling myself and the discussion short if I failed to counter your proposals with 'evidence' in support of other possibilities.

So... the issue of the flags. Let's look again. Here are all three in alphabetical order.

Flag A.jpgFlag B.jpgFlag C.jpg

I, of course, have the slightly unfair advantage of having the actual badges to examine in the flesh. Close inspection of the areas on the flag you have alluded to are not quite so different as they may appear. Yes, differences do exist, but so too do similarities. Look at the area in the images above, indicated on the (viewer's) left, by the red arrow. The curve of the metal where the underside of the flag meets the lamb's back (highlighted by a red curved line) and the wedge of metal between the two are almost identical in each case. In addition, the 'pointed bottom end' of the flags (yellow lines) also has 'extra' areas of metal which appear to have been 'finished' differently. Could this go some way in accounting for any differences? Possibly, though it's not entirely conclusive.

Front ears...

Ear A.jpgEar B.jpgEar C.jpg

From the images above, we can see that the front ear (circled in red) of 'B' has more in common with 'C' than it does with 'A'. Ears 'B' and 'C' are much more closely related to each other than they appear to be to 'A'. Again, I feel this may possibly be down to die wear, the finishing process, and general wear and tear over a hundred years of being knocked and bashed about. What I wouldn't say is that they are so different as to be definitely from different dies.

Cloven hoof on flagstaff...

Cloven Hoof A.jpgCloven Hoof B.jpgCloven Hoof C.jpg

It is undeniable that the cloven hooves shown above differ enormously in terms of their position and proximity to the flagstaff and scroll. Badge 'C' clearly shows the hoof much closer to the scroll than as seen on 'A' and B'. Nobody is denying this, but equally, nobody is asking WHY this might be.

Badge 'C' has an entirely different type of scroll to 'A' and 'B'. Unlike 'A' and 'B', the scroll has been attached to the main body of the badge by means of tabs. and not too deftly either. The reason I believe the hoof on badge 'C' is that much closer to the scroll is because it has been affixed to the scroll by the brazing process (please excuse my lack of metalwork knowledge if this is not the correct term)... and as a result, not only has it been placed lower down, but in order to compensate for this (intentional or otherwise) misalignment, the bottom end of the flagstaff has been shortened in order to prevent it from protruding too far onto the scroll, and possibly beyond.

Differences in faces and eyes...

Head A.jpg

Differences in face shapes and eyes? Yes there are, but are they so very different? I would say not to any significant degree, but this is just my opinion. Others may disagree, and that is something I welcome.

Angles of knees...

Knee A.jpgKnee B.jpgKnee C.jpg

These all look pretty much the same to my eye.

It must be borne in mind that the small number of examples available to us for examination does not go in our favour. It should also be considered that these badges bear more than their fair share of wear and tear (sorry, couldn't resist that); these are artefacts of a hundred years or so in age. I might also add that it is my opinion that the 'finishing' process which each badge must have undergone, might also have differed slightly. This surely would also have had an impact to a greater or lesser degree on the final appearance of a badge, causing it to be less than identical to another from the same manufacturer/die.

Lastly, these badges were never going to win prizes for being beautifully made. It is clear that they are lacking much in the way of close attention to detail and fine craftsmanship. This will definitely play a part in the overall finish and appearance of each badge.

JT

[Rob Miller]

I agree with Martin, even if you look at them from a distance C is quite a different shape to A and B which most probably are from the same dies.

Another point to remember is that its possible for a set of dies to move from one manufacturer to another so even two badges stamped from the same dies could be made in different factories and of course days or many years apart.

But keep up the good work, I also have a fascination with subtle differences.

Rob

[Phil2M]

The shape of the eyebrow is very different between B and C, I can not see how a finishing process could produce such a difference in size and shape. A and B have 5 distinct blobs of fleece on the snout where C has more like 15 faint blobs of fleece.

A and B may be the same die but I would argue that C is different.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

...

Another point to remember is that its possible for a set of dies to move from one manufacturer to another so even two badges stamped from the same dies could be made in different factories and of course days or many years part.

But keep up the good work, I also have a fascination with subtle differences.

Rob

That's an interesting point, Rob. Thank you.

[Nozzer]

Originally Posted by magpie

Don't know if this is of any use to you, out of my little somme finds bag.

I think that has nailed it Andy! Nice one

Great work Jelly! As someone who has a similar obsession with variants, I find your theories on this matter both fascinating and informative. I also believe that if Andy hadn't come up trumps with his "Somme Find", your badge with small round holes (which some don't like) could well have been labled a fake.

However, although there are similarities between the two, I am with Martin on this one

Noz

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Nozzer

...However, although there are similarities between the two, I am with Martin on this one

Noz

It was my fake 'Gaunt Berlin' April Fools' prank that turned you, wasn't it?!!

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi JT

Glad to hear you’re not too upset with my troublemaking ways! I would agree that there are indeed similarities between your ‘A’/‘B’ badges and your ‘C’ badge, though I’d personally see these as perhaps being because one manufacturer used a badge made by another as their template, and thus the similarities are down to the copying.

Anyroad, taking your counter arguments on the points of difference, let’s begin with that flag! I accept what you say about the curve where the flag meets the lamb’s back (red curve), and the wedge, in all three badges being very similar, but I still think the ‘pointed bottom end’ is wider in ‘C’ than the others. I also think the way the cross on the flag is rendered is different in ‘C’, than it is in ‘A’ and ‘B’. I personally see these as differences in the dies, and not just because of finishing.

Regarding the front ear, yes I see what you mean about the ear of ‘B’ being nearer in size to that of ‘C’ than of ‘A’, and I agree that wear would be a factor here. However, I still can’t help seeing the ear in ‘C’ as curling more forward whilst those in ‘A’ and ‘B’ are more pointed/straight. Though I accept this is not very conclusive.

Turning to the hoof on the flagstaff, I did think about the difference in the bottom scroll, but if the staff had been shorted to compensate for the way in which the scroll was applied, then wouldn’t they also have had to shorten the leg immediately behind this? As far as I can see this isn’t the case, rather the front hoof in ‘C’ is merely lower because its design is different in this respect from ‘A’ and ‘B’.

As to the lamb’s face and eyebrow, I still can’t help seeing the eyebrow in ‘C’ as being distinct to those in ‘A’ and ‘B’. There’s also the apparent toupee that ‘C’ has, which means there’s a greater distance between the eyebrow and the top of the head here. Then there’s also the small bulge on the snouts of ‘A’ and ‘B’, that does seem to appear on ‘C’. Sorry, but even accounting for wear, I think ‘C’ has a different face to the other two.

Yes, the knees do seem to be common to all three badges, but I still say the elbow angle in ‘C’ isn’t the same as in ‘A’ and ‘B’, and the shoulder definition in ‘C’ also seems to be more pronounced than in the others, again, even given differences in wear.

All the above, are, of course, my own personally views, but if this was a Leicesters’ tiger, then I’d be putting ‘C’ down as a separate maker’s type!

Best regards

Martin

[Nozzer]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

It was my fake 'Gaunt Berlin' April Fools' prank that turned you, wasn't it?!!

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

Hi JT

Glad to hear you’re not too upset with my troublemaking ways! I would agree that there are indeed similarities between your ‘A’/‘B’ badges and your ‘C’ badge, though I’d personally see these as perhaps being because one manufacturer used a badge made by another as their template, and thus the similarities are down to the copying.

Anyroad, taking your counter arguments on the points of difference, let’s begin with that flag! I accept what you say about the curve where the flag meets the lamb’s back (red curve), and the wedge, in all three badges being very similar, but I still think the ‘pointed bottom end’ is wider in ‘C’ than the others. I also think the way the cross on the flag is rendered is different in ‘C’, than it is in ‘A’ and ‘B’. I personally see these as differences in the dies, and not just because of finishing.

Regarding the front ear, yes I see what you mean about the ear of ‘B’ being nearer in size to that of ‘C’ than of ‘A’, and I agree that wear would be a factor here. However, I still can’t help seeing the ear in ‘C’ as curling more forward whilst those in ‘A’ and ‘B’ are more pointed/straight. Though I accept this is not very conclusive.

Turning to the hoof on the flagstaff, I did think about the difference in the bottom scroll, but if the staff had been shorted to compensate for the way in which the scroll was applied, then wouldn’t they also have had to shorten the leg immediately behind this? As far as I can see this isn’t the case, rather the front hoof in ‘C’ is merely lower because its design is different in this respect from ‘A’ and ‘B’.

As to the lamb’s face and eyebrow, I still can’t help seeing the eyebrow in ‘C’ as being distinct to those in ‘A’ and ‘B’. There’s also the apparent toupee that ‘C’ has, which means there’s a greater distance between the eyebrow and the top of the head here. Then there’s also the small bulge on the snouts of ‘A’ and ‘B’, that does seem to appear on ‘C’. Sorry, but even accounting for wear, I think ‘C’ has a different face to the other two.

Yes, the knees do seem to be common to all three badges, but I still say the elbow angle in ‘C’ isn’t the same as in ‘A’ and ‘B’, and the shoulder definition in ‘C’ also seems to be more pronounced than in the others, again, even given differences in wear.

All the above, are, of course, my own personally views, but if this was a Leicesters’ tiger, then I’d be putting ‘C’ down as a separate maker’s type!

Best regards

Martin

All points duly noted, sir. Thank you once again for your considered replies. Much appreciated.

JT