KDG or QDG? - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

GriffMJ · #1 10-05-10, 03:04 PM

Is there a "subtle" difference between the KDG Eagle and the QDG Eagle? Or is it the same design..... after the 1st KDG & Queens Bays amalgamated?

I say this as the KDG had the Gilt/Brass eagle up to 1915 and also had a white metal eagle post 1937. Is there any way of telling if you have a KDG or a QDG badge?

Alan O · #2 10-05-10, 04:14 PM

Cardiff bloke will give you chapter and verse but the brass badge pre1915 was with a scroll. Post 1937 brass was issued but the regt wore bought w/m and continue to use the same badge to this day. The only thing that has changed is a flirtation with chrome and a/a. If it is a WW1 badge that you want then it is the scrolled version, the bimetal or the all brass star and garter.

GriffMJ · #3 10-05-10, 04:33 PM

Alan

I bought a badge today that was described as white metal KDG post 1937..... and I cant tell if its KDG or QDG? The loops tells me its possibly an SD Cap circa late 1950s or 1960s?

Alan O · #4 10-05-10, 04:35 PM

PM cardiffbloke to get an authoritative answer. For me there is no way to tell so it can be whatever you want it to be.

GriffMJ · #5 10-05-10, 04:37 PM

Alan we are in the same boat

3748 Hussar · #6 10-05-10, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Alan we are in the same boat

Griff,

Try this link to posts on thread by Cardiffbloke. He is the black Belt on these Regt's

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...+guards&page=4

3748 Hussar

GriffMJ · #7 10-05-10, 05:48 PM

Thanks for that.... still none the wiser as the badge is not shown in the post.

I have PM'd the "Welsh Cavalry" Wizard and await his reponse

Cardiffbloke · #8 10-05-10, 10:01 PM

Hiya Griff, thanks for the Q, I had began to think that there would be no more on my 3 regiments as it's been ages since the last one!

This particular Q had vexed me for some time and so I embarked on some research. I Emailed as many surviving KDGs as i could and also QDGs that had served at the time of amalgamation, posed Qs on the regimental website and trawled through hundreds of photographs in the regimental archive. What I am about to state is fact as I now understand it. However; as you will know, all it takes is one authoritative photograph and all this can be consigned to the 'bunkum bin'.
To understand the difference between eagles, you have to go back to the Victorian ORs under scrolled badge. It came in 2 distinct strikes, we shall call them KDG A & KDG B. These two patterns have been verified with contemporary photographs within the regimental archive and must have been supplied by 2 separate manufacturers using 2 different dies. Incidentally, the Officers gilt examples also come in the same 2 slightly differing styles.
You will see that KDG A has more sweeping lines while KDG B has a flatter, broader appearance.
Now turn the clock forward to 1938 and after much agitation KDG are allowed once more to wear the eagle. This time however they opt for one without the scroll. The Officers were to have a cast silver one and the ORs and almost identical one in struck in WM. The War Office had other ideas and issued it in GM much to the disgust of the KDG hierarchy. They then hastily ordered a WM alternative which was sold to the boys in the PRI.
As you can see, the un scrolled 1938 badge is a very similar shape to KDG A, with sweeping softer lines (the same as the one you show a photo of in your post which is WM and not silver). This shape endured throughout WWII with minor variations mostly as a result of foreign and bazaar manufacture whilst on deployment to N Africa, Italy, Palestine and Germany.
In 1959 along came amalgamation with the Bays and it was agreed that the new regiment's badge would be the eagle. A pattern was sent to the War office for approval and it was at this stage that KDG B was chosen (if this was by accident rather than design we shall never know as no-one seems to recall exactly what went on in those negotiations!?). QDG asked for a WM badge with lugs. They got a brass badge dipped in WM with a slider! With a certain amount of de ja vue the hierarchy once again opted for private purchase and the boys got the last iteration which remains to this day.
Of course; the KDG pattern continued to be sold in the PRI and worn until it wasted out and the new broader badge became the norm. Truth be known, i don't think the boys at the time gave a rats ass......

But by the time I joined the regiment, the KDG badge had become a bit of a status symbol as it seemed to be of superior quality and polished up very well compared to the newer QDG shaped item (by this time we had adopted the practice of polishing the shield to an almost mirror like quality).
Many people have advertised both these styles on Ebay and elsewhere as both KDG or QDG, many badge collectors class B as A and A as B. All I can tell you is that not a single KDG veteran could recall wearing badge B; only badge A. So, it is my firm belief that any badge resembling A is KDG (notwithstanding re-strikes) and any badge resembling B is QDG.
Confused!!??

GriffMJ · #9 10-05-10, 10:18 PM

Well ..... I think I follow all of that ..... but dont test me

By the look of the badge I purchased today then its identicle to the last but one on your list of pictures.. and therefore resembles "A" and therefore is 1st KDG!

So in summary .... I think I have a 1st KDG Silver Officers SD Cap badge c1940-50s

Diolch yn vawr Howard!

Cardiffbloke · #10 11-05-10, 07:13 AM

Nope, you have an ORs struck WM badge......

GriffMJ · #11 11-05-10, 08:14 AM

White metal loops..... long? It might arrive today...... It will be dunked in the silver dip in the hope it comes out a "Dazzler"

If it does not..... I will still be chuffed with an O/R's Wm KDG. My Brother was "Welsh Cavalry".

Howard.... any idea where I can get some correct "Prussian Blue" material from? The Leicestershire (PAO) Yeomanry were also allowed to wear it on the collars of their frockcoats...... but dropped its use c1900 onwards.

Cardiffbloke · #12 11-05-10, 02:09 PM

Sorry mate, no idea on the cloth front.... Who was your brother? I served from 75 till 2006 and still do technically as i hold a TA commission and wear QDG cap badge! Still on their staff and social list much to my huge amusement!!

PS attach a pic of a 'proper' KDG Officer's badge, so you can see the difference. Yours, i'm afraid, i definitely an OR's item......

GriffMJ · #13 11-05-10, 02:19 PM

Howard

Ahhh ok ...... I saw in the other thread that it was an Officers Collar? And that the Collar was used as a "Merit Badge" for SNCO Troop Leaders. OK so I see what it is now.... excellent.

My brother was in c1980-5 ....a Troop leader.... V W M-J. He left and went into the City.... then joined the LDYPAO and his final bit was a watchkeeper cap badged RDG in NI c1995.

Cardiffbloke · #14 11-05-10, 02:23 PM

Ha ha!! I knew your brother VERY well.... Give Vaughn my regards. he will remember me as a very VERY naughty Corpral/Sgt Howard Smith.... I think a certain 'romp in the hay' was his downfall....

he'll probably deny it though... lol.. good to hear he is well, he was a nice guy....

GriffMJ · #15 11-05-10, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardiffbloke

Ha ha!! I knew your brother VERY well.... Give Vaughn my regards. he will remember me as a very VERY naughty Corpral/Sgt Howard Smith.... I think a certain 'romp in the hay' was his downfall....

he'll probably deny it though... lol.. good to hear he is well, he was a nice guy....

I only found out about the "Romp in the Hay", funnily enough, about a year ago. The lady he "enjoyed" contacted me via a well known comms system and told me all about it

He and I are not the best of chums

He and "Roger Ditchley" in the Fosdyke Saga (Bill Tidy) have lots in common! My father would have taken his nuts off with out pain killers..... just as well he was not around.