KDG or QDG?

[GriffMJ]

Thats a nice badge! Gilt metal?

[Cardiffbloke]

Gilding metal yes

[Frank Kelley]

Hello,
Just found this post and wanted to say many thanks for such a very interesting one indeed.
I only have examples of your pre 1915 KDG A and B, I had not even noticed the differences between the two until now after reading your original post here.
My own observations on these would have to be that, B, is a much nicer badge, a far better strike with rather more detail than, A, all done using a nicer metal, however, I have to say that I do like both.
I have A, on both sliders and lugs, but, I only have B on lugs and rather interestingly, I have only encountered B in South Africa when I originally collected cavalry many years ago, never found an example of, A, from there, the last example of, A, I bought was as a boy, ironically, in Cardiff, I assume that their museum is still there, in the castle.
They are really magnificent badges, well, I now know where to go to if I want information on this fine regiment,
Very many thanks again,
Kind regards Frank Kelley

Originally Posted by Cardiffbloke

Hiya Griff, thanks for the Q, I had began to think that there would be no more on my 3 regiments as it's been ages since the last one!
This particular Q had vexed me for some time and so I embarked on some research. I Emailed as many surviving KDGs as i could and also QDGs that had served at the time of amalgamation, posed Qs on the regimental website and trawled through hundreds of photographs in the regimental archive. What I am about to state is fact as I now understand it. However; as you will know, all it takes is one authoritative photograph and all this can be consigned to the 'bunkum bin'.
To understand the difference between eagles, you have to go back to the Victorian ORs under scrolled badge. It came in 2 distinct strikes, we shall call them KDG A & KDG B. These two patterns have been verified with contemporary photographs within the regimental archive and must have been supplied by 2 separate manufacturers using 2 different dies. Incidentally, the Officers gilt examples also come in the same 2 slightly differing styles.
You will see that KDG A has more sweeping lines while KDG B has a flatter, broader appearance.
Now turn the clock forward to 1938 and after much agitation KDG are allowed once more to wear the eagle. This time however they opt for one without the scroll. The Officers were to have a cast silver one and the ORs and almost identical one in struck in WM. The War Office had other ideas and issued it in GM much to the disgust of the KDG hierarchy. They then hastily ordered a WM alternative which was sold to the boys in the PRI.
As you can see, the un scrolled 1938 badge is a very similar shape to KDG A, with sweeping softer lines (the same as the one you show a photo of in your post which is WM and not silver). This shape endured throughout WWII with minor variations mostly as a result of foreign and bazaar manufacture whilst on deployment to N Africa, Italy, Palestine and Germany.
In 1959 along came amalgamation with the Bays and it was agreed that the new regiment's badge would be the eagle. A pattern was sent to the War office for approval and it was at this stage that KDG B was chosen (if this was by accident rather than design we shall never know as no-one seems to recall exactly what went on in those negotiations!?). QDG asked for a WM badge with lugs. They got a brass badge dipped in WM with a slider! With a certain amount of de ja vue the hierarchy once again opted for private purchase and the boys got the last iteration which remains to this day.
Of course; the KDG pattern continued to be sold in the PRI and worn until it wasted out and the new broader badge became the norm. Truth be known, i don't think the boys at the time gave a rats ass......
But by the time I joined the regiment, the KDG badge had become a bit of a status symbol as it seemed to be of superior quality and polished up very well compared to the newer QDG shaped item (by this time we had adopted the practice of polishing the shield to an almost mirror like quality).
Many people have advertised both these styles on Ebay and elsewhere as both KDG or QDG, many badge collectors class B as A and A as B. All I can tell you is that not a single KDG veteran could recall wearing badge B; only badge A. So, it is my firm belief that any badge resembling A is KDG (notwithstanding re-strikes) and any badge resembling B is QDG.
Confused!!??

[Frank Kelley]

Forgot to ask you, do you happen to know what they were doing in Iraq after the Great War, I think they were part of the 7th Cavalry Brigade.
Seldom gets mentioned, even on the qdg website.
Regards again Frank Kelley

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by Cardiffbloke

Hiya Griff, thanks for the Q, I had began to think that there would be no more on my 3 regiments as it's been ages since the last one!
This particular Q had vexed me for some time and so I embarked on some research. I Emailed as many surviving KDGs as i could and also QDGs that had served at the time of amalgamation, posed Qs on the regimental website and trawled through hundreds of photographs in the regimental archive. What I am about to state is fact as I now understand it. However; as you will know, all it takes is one authoritative photograph and all this can be consigned to the 'bunkum bin'.
To understand the difference between eagles, you have to go back to the Victorian ORs under scrolled badge. It came in 2 distinct strikes, we shall call them KDG A & KDG B. These two patterns have been verified with contemporary photographs within the regimental archive and must have been supplied by 2 separate manufacturers using 2 different dies. Incidentally, the Officers gilt examples also come in the same 2 slightly differing styles.
You will see that KDG A has more sweeping lines while KDG B has a flatter, broader appearance.
Now turn the clock forward to 1938 and after much agitation KDG are allowed once more to wear the eagle. This time however they opt for one without the scroll. The Officers were to have a cast silver one and the ORs and almost identical one in struck in WM. The War Office had other ideas and issued it in GM much to the disgust of the KDG hierarchy. They then hastily ordered a WM alternative which was sold to the boys in the PRI.
As you can see, the un scrolled 1938 badge is a very similar shape to KDG A, with sweeping softer lines (the same as the one you show a photo of in your post which is WM and not silver). This shape endured throughout WWII with minor variations mostly as a result of foreign and bazaar manufacture whilst on deployment to N Africa, Italy, Palestine and Germany.
In 1959 along came amalgamation with the Bays and it was agreed that the new regiment's badge would be the eagle. A pattern was sent to the War office for approval and it was at this stage that KDG B was chosen (if this was by accident rather than design we shall never know as no-one seems to recall exactly what went on in those negotiations!?). QDG asked for a WM badge with lugs. They got a brass badge dipped in WM with a slider! With a certain amount of de ja vue the hierarchy once again opted for private purchase and the boys got the last iteration which remains to this day.
Of course; the KDG pattern continued to be sold in the PRI and worn until it wasted out and the new broader badge became the norm. Truth be known, i don't think the boys at the time gave a rats ass......
But by the time I joined the regiment, the KDG badge had become a bit of a status symbol as it seemed to be of superior quality and polished up very well compared to the newer QDG shaped item (by this time we had adopted the practice of polishing the shield to an almost mirror like quality).
Many people have advertised both these styles on Ebay and elsewhere as both KDG or QDG, many badge collectors class B as A and A as B. All I can tell you is that not a single KDG veteran could recall wearing badge B; only badge A. So, it is my firm belief that any badge resembling A is KDG (notwithstanding re-strikes) and any badge resembling B is QDG.
Confused!!??

Hi, was it only the QDG's that polished the shield ( I was led to believe by an ex QDG man that this was to deliberately obliterate the Franz Joseph crest)?

The reason for my question is that I have a silver plated KDG officers pattern by JR Gaunt that has the crest polished out.

Thanks,
Jack

[Cardiffbloke]

Hi Jack
The idea that KDG polished the badge to destruction because of Austria's involvement in WWI is complete bunkum. Almost certainly the badge you have is one that survived amalgamation and was subsequently used by a QDG and then buffed to a shine as expected by the RSM/SSMs.

[wright241]

Here are some pictures taken in 2009 - after a lot of info from Howard. I do have close-ups of the different ribbons, crowns and the tail width/length as well, but I am not so sure they are of interest.

These 2 pics show x2 die differences on the officers badge. You may need an eyeglass to see them - I do. If it helps.

Many thanks to Howard for his unerring patience in going through this with me all that time ago.

David