British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > South African Military and Police Insignia > General Topics

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 17-04-15, 11:49 PM
davidwyke's Avatar
davidwyke davidwyke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,478
Default Colin Owen book

Hi

I recently purchased a copy of the book "The Military Badges And Insignia Of Southern Africa" (Colin R. Owen), only 25 years after it was published! What a fantastic reference book.

Reading the introduction it would appear that all the badges shown in the book are from the author's collection (some of the badges having being added to his collection specifically to be included in the book). Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the collection is still intact or has it since been broken up?

David
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 18-04-15, 12:11 AM
rhodesianmilitaria rhodesianmilitaria is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 853
Default

It was sold years ago. Some privately and other bits on the net where he set up a site to sell it.
It's a pretty good book but from a Rhodesian collectors perspective there is a lot that isn't in it.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 18-04-15, 12:57 AM
davidwyke's Avatar
davidwyke davidwyke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,478
Default

Hi Peter

Thanks for that. There may be a lot of Rhodesian items "missing" but he still had a superb collection.

I also have the Cranston & Rhodes book which includes a lot of additional Rhodesian insignia. Haven't got the recently published 2nd volume yet but there are probably further items in that.

David
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 18-04-15, 01:26 AM
rhodesianmilitaria rhodesianmilitaria is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 853
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwyke View Post
Hi Peter

Thanks for that. There may be a lot of Rhodesian items "missing" but he still had a superb collection.

I also have the Cranston & Rhodes book which includes a lot of additional Rhodesian insignia. Haven't got the recently published 2nd volume yet but there are probably further items in that.

David
Interesting. What is the title of the book?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 18-04-15, 01:56 AM
davidwyke's Avatar
davidwyke davidwyke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,478
Default

It's "British Colonial Badges - Military Insignia Of The Land Forces Of The Colonies, Protectorates And Dependencies" by Barry Renfrew, Margaret Renfrew & Bill Cranston. (I said "Rhodes" in my previous post, that's what you get with talking about Rhodesia!).

The original volume was published about 3 years ago and a second volume was published a few months ago, haven't seen vol 11 yet.

David
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 18-04-15, 02:04 AM
rhodesianmilitaria rhodesianmilitaria is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 853
Default

Ok thanks. I'd never heard of it. Most of what I collect isn't shown in books in detail and certainly some of the history of the items is incorrect and I've proven that with original photos. Hard to say when something is no longer being worn when I can produce a photo showing that it was some 5 years later.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 19-04-15, 08:04 AM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,562
Default

Certainly not a good reference book, merely, an illustrated catalogue of a single collection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwyke View Post
Hi

I recently purchased a copy of the book "The Military Badges And Insignia Of Southern Africa" (Colin R. Owen), only 25 years after it was published! What a fantastic reference book.

Reading the introduction it would appear that all the badges shown in the book are from the author's collection (some of the badges having being added to his collection specifically to be included in the book). Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the collection is still intact or has it since been broken up?

David
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 19-04-15, 08:28 AM
rhodesianmilitaria rhodesianmilitaria is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 853
Default

Been many years since I bought a reference book so I can't speak for all of them. However to me a good reference book would have to include reverse photos of the badges, patches, wings or whatever the items were.
The photos would have to be closeup, taken to show as close as possible to the correct colours and also so show the attachment/s, hallmarks, stitching, type of backings etc.
Example see photo.
I don't know if there are any books like that, there certainly aren't in what I collect. One then has to ask if in today's climate of so much copying whether anyone would do that.
I certainly wouldn't show publicly the reverse of the para wings in my collection or the various stampings on the reverse of Selous Scouts officers badges.

IMG_1889.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 19-04-15, 09:31 AM
davidwyke's Avatar
davidwyke davidwyke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,478
Default Reference Book

I appreciate the above points. To me, though, it's a good reference book in the sense that you can refer to it, for example in order to identify what a particular badge is. There are numerous badges shown which would be difficult to ID as to unit without such a reference, unless you are an expert on SA insignia, which I'm certainly not!

Obviously some reference books are more detailed and comprehensive than others but If you refer to a book for information, whatever that info may be, then that's what I would term a reference book. Whatever you want to call it, though, I still think it's a good book and I wish I had bought a copy years ago!

David

Last edited by davidwyke; 19-04-15 at 10:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 19-04-15, 10:02 PM
fougasse1940's Avatar
fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,206
Default

If there is a better book on Southern African badges than Owen I'd very much like to hear about it.

Rgds, Thomas.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 19-04-15, 11:19 PM
John L John L is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Illinois, USA
Posts: 481
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
If there is a better book on Southern African badges than Owen I'd very much like to hear about it.

Rgds, Thomas.
I don't if it is better but Border War Badges by [form member] Andrew Dinnes is very good. There is a link in the form members books

John
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 19-04-15, 11:22 PM
rhodesianmilitaria rhodesianmilitaria is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 853
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
If there is a better book on Southern African badges than Owen I'd very much like to hear about it.

Rgds, Thomas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodesianmilitaria View Post
It's a pretty good book but from a Rhodesian collectors perspective there is a lot that isn't in it.
Part of what I said in my first post on this thread.

I don't collect South African items or other Southern African countries items so it might be the best reference book on earth for those countries.

From a Rhodesian collectors point of view it's good when you first start collecting but depending on what you collect then there is a lot missing. However there is no definitive reference book for Rhodesian militaria that I know of and probably never will be. Dudley Walls book was very good but all these books are really only the author's collections just like Frank Kelley has stated.

In this book of Owen's:
Most para wings missing.
Most AD wings missing.
PJI brevets missing.
No explanation of the differences in variations.
No explanation of the differences in stampings (hallmarks) of the officer's and OR's Selous Scouts, RLI, RAR and Greys Scouts badges.
No explanation of when Reuteler Manufacturing started making badges.
No real explanation on a number of badges and a number of the dates they were worn imo are incorrect.

As I have said it is a good book when starting out but in the field that I collect it is seriously lacking but hey I have a copy and every year I might look at something in it.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 21-04-15, 02:53 PM
natal01 natal01 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: durban, south africa
Posts: 546
Default

Producing a book on badges has to be a 'labour of love' as with your limited audience you are unlikely to make any money. I am therefor grateful to to those authors who took the time to share the knowledge that they had gained over years of collecting . There are always going to be problems of error or omission.
The earliest formal publications on Southern African badges were :
1) Regimental Devices in South Africa 1783-1954. Dr H H Curzon. Pub. Caxton 1954.
2) ore Military and Police Devices from South Africa 1790-1962. Dr H H Curzon . Pub. 1962.

The publication quality was pretty basic and the print run was limited so very hard to find these days. This is a great pity as Curzon gave lots of very good description and quite a few of the badges he discusses dont appear in the books which have been published subsequently.
There is no definitive work on SA badges as each of the authors will have 'taken a view' on his subject. The only solution is to get all the books ever published on the subject and even then you are going to find badges that dont appear in any of them. Maybe an online badge 'book'which is capable of regular revision might be a solution, but then not everyone likes to share !
Regards
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 21-04-15, 07:36 PM
RobD's Avatar
RobD RobD is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: UK and Cape Town
Posts: 150
Default

It strikes me that a reference book (like Owen) would always suffer from the quality of its reproductions and limitations in space. And of course a single author is not infallible. And it goes out of date and cannot correct for errors.
So...
May I support the proposal above that the forummers all collaborate to host an online encyclopedia of South African badges?
Needs someone who is tech savvy to set up the website and allow those who have registered to upload images.
Also needs someone to moderate the discussion / controversy and condense it into a definitive description.
And someone to make an index so badges can be searched.

Then, soon enough there will be a comprehensive resource.

How about it?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 22-04-15, 06:52 AM
rhodesianmilitaria rhodesianmilitaria is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 853
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by natal01 View Post
Maybe an online badge 'book'which is capable of regular revision might be a solution, but then not everyone likes to share !
Regards
Mike
Not everyone likes to share for various reasons. In my case it's because no website is secure. Have a look at any of the FB groups that are to do with militaria and they are continually exposed to makers of fakes from at least Pakistan and sometimes Vietnam. Even though the mods are deleting these accounts they continue to join these sites. It's worth noting that the biggest dealers of Vietnamese fakes in the world are Aussies even though the majority of the items are made in the Dan Sinh markets in Ho Chi Minh City.
Anyone can pinch a photo from anywhere. Well I can so I assume anyone else can. If ones intention is to make fakes and he/she can steal a closeup detailed photo of the obverse and reverse, then it definitely gives them a leg up in my book.

My former site was 53 pages which I built and updated and that took a fair bit of spare time and I only scratched the surface regarding Rhodesian items. I would imagine making one for South African militaria would be a hell of a lot bigger job.

Just to finish on this, a lot of photos of the reverse of items I will only send by email. Call me paranoid but that's what I decided many years ago.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:40 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.