Unknown Silver RAF Eagle Badge ATA related ??

[oc14]

Any assistance on this one much appreciated please. RAF Eagle on lugs, smae size as standard RAF sidehat badge, rear is marked "Sterling" - might be ATA related ??

TIA

Paul

[maering]

That's interesting ! I've been trying to find information on the bird (possibly eagle) seen on the ATA uniforms of non pilot, non engineers. It is a while since you posted this but you might still be here ! I'd guess a collar dog/badge

[maering]

Looking at other posts also might be above the silver cap badge

[Padre]

The ATA in general wore gilt or bullion insignia (similar versions in 'gold' silk thread were worn on battledress), the small facing eagles being worn on the collars of Admin and other ground officers. The badge was essentially the eagle that came with the two-piece cap badge.

The ATA had fire sections at all their ferry pools, with the officers wearing ATA insignia in silver, with collar badges of the 'ATA' letters surmounted by an eagle. Firemen wore standard fire service heavy wool fire tunics with large silver metal buttons bearing the letters 'ATA', and when not on active duty tended to do other jobs around the airfield. The photo below shows an ATA fireman at No. 3 Ferry Pool, RAF Hawarden, working behind the bar in the mess. It is possible that the fire section officers at some point changed collar badges to just an eagle (in line with the rest of ATA) but if so they would be a lot smaller than the one shown above.

The one above is hallmarked silver which would lean towards a sweetheart badge, but the lugs on the back suggest otherwise. My thinking is more like a crossbelt badge for a piper, or pipe major, their buttons and accoutrements often being in silver.

My apologies to Mike B who asked me about silver ATA badges and the fire section. I have been trying to gather a bit of information to give a fuller answer if I can, which I shall post elsewhere.

[leigh kitchen]

I'd be interested in any reference to ATA Fire Sections wearing silver insignia.

Would the badge shown being only an inch or so across be a crossbelt badge?

[Padre]

Originally Posted by maering

Looking at other posts also might be above the silver cap badge

The small eagle for the two-piece cap badge is 30mm across, for both the side cap badge and the larger peaked cap badge, the same size for the silver cap badge too. I think the one at the top of the thread is too large.

[leigh kitchen]

It is a little larger.

[Padre]

The cap badge worn by officers of the fire section in unmarked silver. Full sized as per the gilt version. Tunic buttons were standard ATA black plastic.

Silver marked fire section collar badges, 30mm by 20mm.

White metal large button as worn on the fire tunic. Oversized, 29mm.

[maering]

Originally Posted by Padre

The ATA in general wore gilt or bullion insignia (similar versions in 'gold' silk thread were worn on battledress), the small facing eagles being worn on the collars of Admin and other ground officers. The badge was essentially the eagle that came with the two-piece cap badge.

SNIP .

That's all great thank you. Especially the silver buttons, I've often thought they might be firefighters, is there any references you can recommend ? I live near No 6 Ferry Pool as was & used to fly out of Leics E, the women pilots tend to be focused on when people talk about the ATA (bit awkward as I'm female lol) but I think the support roles are really interesting & need recording as much as possible. My daughter tends to like Despatch rider info, if you happen to know anything about ATA despatch riders !

[Padre]

Originally Posted by maering

That's all great thank you. Especially the silver buttons, I've often thought they might be firefighters, is there any references you can recommend ? I live near No 6 Ferry Pool as was & used to fly out of Leics E, the women pilots tend to be focused on when people talk about the ATA (bit awkward as I'm female lol) but I think the support roles are really interesting & need recording as much as possible. My daughter tends to like Despatch rider info, if you happen to know anything about ATA despatch riders !

As far as I know the fire section personnel effectively wore standard fire fighting gear of the time hence the large silver buttons for the fire tunic. Its probably the reason why they had silver insignia.

At the start the ATA had pilots and air gunners, and then flight engineers for the larger aircraft. As the war progressed the ATA grew to have its own intelligence section, meteorology service, technical department, engineering department, medical section, welfare section, accounts, equipment section, fire, Motor Transport, administration, etc, and also started training personnel (some being WAAFs) from scratch. They also utilised a large number of Air Training Corps cadets who worked as messengers, cleaning aircraft and helping with jobs in the hangar, and also as an extra pair of hands on some aircraft like the Avro Anson which I think had a wind up(wards) undercarriage.

I have a wartime ATA handbook which mentions that 'Ambulances are manned by women drivers and also come under the heading of MT. These drivers are on duty in the ambulance during flying hours and work in as part of the 'crash crew' team. Women dispatch riders are also employed at HQ for the delivery of urgent communications.'

Another photo showing the plain ATA collars as worn by admin staff.

[davidcushworth]

Originally Posted by oc14

Any assistance on this one much appreciated please. RAF Eagle on lugs, smae size as standard RAF sidehat badge, rear is marked "Sterling" - might be ATA related ??

TIA

Paul

Are you sure it's RAF. I thought the RAF eagle faced the other way! Looks similar to Dutch Indian Air Force

[Padre]

With a few odd exceptions (mainly when eagles are worn in pairs, such as early cuff eagles) RAF eagle badges have always faced to the right.

[maering]

Yes makes sense as the bakelite black buttons would be not great near a fire. What is the handbook you have please ? The photo you attached is the one that first started me looking for the eagles

[leigh kitchen]

Is there a reference for ATA Fire Section wearing silver badges please?

[Padre]

Originally Posted by maering

Yes makes sense as the bakelite black buttons would be not great near a fire. What is the handbook you have please ? The photo you attached is the one that first started me looking for the eagles

The handbook is called simply 'Air Transport Auxiliary' and was published by the ATA in 1945 to be sold (2/6 each) with proceeds to the ATA Benevolent fund. It gives details of the history; establishment; training; dress, ranks and insignia; duties of Adjutants, captains and operations officers; Orders; all the various sections and the benevolent fund. 72 pages long.

Is there a reference for ATA Fire Section wearing silver badges please?

I originally got this from a handful of members who had been with the crash crew/fire section during the war, when I interviewed them many years ago. I was asked about the fire section a few weeks ago and I have been trying to find my written references and some other references since, but have not laid my hands on them as yet.