42nd

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Ron
Excellent stuff ! What a magnificent collection you have. Thanks for sharing them all with us. Could I ask if you have a reverse view of the two Glengarry badges you showed in your post #88 ?
Many thanks in advance. All the best and good hunting in 2017. Regards Jeff

[rmarsden]

Thanks Jeff, here is the reverse pics. The same obverse and reverse dies used for both examples. Note the .025" wall thickness around the periphery of the badges.

[Jeff Mc William]

Very many thanks Ron.
Interesting to see that both these (KK496) have EW lugs which would seem to confirm your belief that these are post 1874.
I notice K&K avoid giving dates, tho' Carman does ... which agree with yours.
Happy New Year. Jeff

[Advsmt]

Hi Ron, happy new year and hope to see more badges this year. I have some questions on the Sphinx badge if you don't mind. Firstly, is it possible to date these, as I notice you have some dates attached to yours. Also you have battalion specific examples, so were they used across both regular battalion? Also how can you tell if it's a SNCO or officer Sphinx? And when you see early colour plates of bonnet badges with what appears to be a metal badges at the base of the plume/hackle is that a button, Sphinx or other device?

Lot of questions there!

Many thanks

Bryan

[rmarsden]

Hi Bryan, happy New Year to you.
Its not really possible to be accurate with the dating of badges, the dates I give are my own opinion based on examples I have seen in museums and other collections. Officers badges in Copper/gilt are earlier than GM/gilt or Brass/gilt. Officers are always gilt whereas Sgts are GM or brass. On old colour plates you see all manor of badge representation on the bonnet, in the Napolionic wars the 42nd ors wore a button with different colour hackles to denote light, grenadier or battalion coys.
Ron.

[rmarsden]

Officers bonnet badge die-struck in copper gilt.
This example with long neck and horizontal reeding on the headress.

[jf42]

Originally Posted by rmarsden

On old colour plates you see all manor of badge representation on the bonnet, in the Napolionic wars the 42nd ors wore a button with different colour hackles to denote light, grenadier or battalion coys.
Ron.

Ron, I was interested you mentioned Regulation flank coy feathers for the 42nd. I have been hoping, without success, to find reference, one way or the other, to the 42nd wearing flank coy feathers in the bonnet for the period after 1802.

The two Loutherbourg paintings from 1802 depict the whole regiment wearing scarlet plumes in Egypt and we are told that it was in May 1802 that the Black Watch obtained special permission from the King to retain their non-regulation 'red feather'- although the CO William Dickson omitted to have this recorded at the time, either in Regimental orders or with the Adjutant General.

Whether the Royal permission only applied to the battalion coys is not clear. I don't feel too much reliance can be put on the Charles Hamilton-Smith print of circa 1810-12, showing a Black Watch grenadier with a white feather.

Any thoughts?

The Historical Record of the Forty Second Royal Highland Regiment (1845) is silent on the matter. As is the Chronology of the 42nd (1843). As is Stewart of Garth in Sketches of the Highlanders (1822)

The earliest reference to flank coy feathers I can find is from 1875. A little late. It appears in Wllliam Melven's update of Stewart's Military Annals, which draws heavily on the writings of Lt. Colonel John Wheatley who served in the 42nd from 1817 to 1866.

Melven describes the 42nd returning home from the Peninsula in 1814. They had been "so long in the field, the feathers had disappeared from the bonnet, and a little red feather on the front, the same as on a shako had been adopted." Presumably this was throughout the whole regiment?

After Waterloo, the 42nd were lumbered with the unpopular 'craw's wing' bonnet worn in the early post-war years. This was mounted with 'a large loose worsted tuft' worn in 'white for the grenadier company, green for the light company, and red for the others.' This seems to be the earliest reference to flank coy distinctive 'feathers' worn in the 42nd since 1802

If Wheatley's recollections are to be relied on, the famous order of 1822, clarifying that the 'red vulture feather' was 'intended to be used exclusively by the Forty-Second Regiment', at that time applied only to the battalion companies of the regiment.

Melven/Wheatley goes on to describe the red-tipped, bi-coloured hackles (white/green/ yellow/white) which flank coys, drummers and bandsmen of the 42nd subsequently adopted, circa 1821 -'another piece of bad taste'. In 1825, this 'extraordinary variety of heckles' prompted the Colonel, Sir George Murray, on visiting the regiment, to express his desire that only the plain 'red heckle which he took to be 'a special mark of distinction,' should be worn. Wheatley claims this order was complied with so swiftly that the very next day every officer and man of the 42nd was in possession of a 'red heckle.'

Flank coy feathers for the Highland corps were abolished in 1830.

The rest is history. More or less. (Just a little late for Red Hackle Day)

[rmarsden]

JF42, now you have put me on the spot trying to remember where I got the information from. Military uniforms at Waterloo by Blanford press, and other Napoleonic uniform detail articles and magazines.
Though what authors they were quoting I have no idea.
Ron.

[rmarsden]

JF42, you could check Wellingtons Highlanders Osprey, Wellingtons Army Brassy, Wellingtons Infantry 1&2 Osprey and Regiments at Waterloo Almark. Might be a mention in them?
Ron.

[rmarsden]

Unmarked silver prize medal to 505 Sgt Robert Burnett.
Enlisted Dec 1899; Cpl Sept 1905; Sgt April 1907; Rejoined June 1910; Transfered to 2nd Bn India Nov 1911; Garrison Sgt Calcutta 1913; CQMS Coy no 2 1914, CSM Coy no 2 1915, wounded with 2nd Bn 1915 discharged to pension 1920.

[rmarsden]

42 numerals on a hat band strip (part).
Silver bullion that may have been gilded? On a one inch high piece of I think Black Watch tartan? Possibly from a station masters style cap.

[rmarsden]

Originally Posted by jf42

Ron, I was interested you mentioned Regulation flank coy feathers for the 42nd. I have been hoping, without success, to find reference, one way or the other, to the 42nd wearing flank coy feathers in the bonnet for the period after 1802.

The two Loutherbourg paintings from 1802 depict the whole regiment wearing scarlet plumes in Egypt and we are told that it was in May 1802 that the Black Watch obtained special permission from the King to retain their non-regulation 'red feather'- although the CO William Dickson omitted to have this recorded at the time, either in Regimental orders or with the Adjutant General.

Whether the Royal permission only applied to the battalion coys is not clear. I don't feel too much reliance can be put on the Charles Hamilton-Smith print of circa 1810-12, showing a Black Watch grenadier with a white feather.

Any thoughts?

The Historical Record of the Forty Second Royal Highland Regiment (1845) is silent on the matter. As is the Chronology of the 42nd (1843). As is Stewart of Garth in Sketches of the Highlanders (1822)

The earliest reference to flank coy feathers I can find is from 1875. A little late. It appears in Wllliam Melven's update of Stewart's Military Annals, which draws heavily on the writings of Lt. Colonel John Wheatley who served in the 42nd from 1817 to 1866.

Melven describes the 42nd returning home from the Peninsula in 1814. They had been "so long in the field, the feathers had disappeared from the bonnet, and a little red feather on the front, the same as on a shako had been adopted." Presumably this was throughout the whole regiment?

After Waterloo, the 42nd were lumbered with the unpopular 'craw's wing' bonnet worn in the early post-war years. This was mounted with 'a large loose worsted tuft' worn in 'white for the grenadier company, green for the light company, and red for the others.' This seems to be the earliest reference to flank coy distinctive 'feathers' worn in the 42nd since 1802

If Wheatley's recollections are to be relied on, the famous order of 1822, clarifying that the 'red vulture feather' was 'intended to be used exclusively by the Forty-Second Regiment', at that time applied only to the battalion companies of the regiment.

Melven/Wheatley goes on to describe the red-tipped, bi-coloured hackles (white/green/ yellow/white) which flank coys, drummers and bandsmen of the 42nd subsequently adopted, circa 1821 -'another piece of bad taste'. In 1825, this 'extraordinary variety of heckles' prompted the Colonel, Sir George Murray, on visiting the regiment, to express his desire that only the plain 'red heckle which he took to be 'a special mark of distinction,' should be worn. Wheatley claims this order was complied with so swiftly that the very next day every officer and man of the 42nd was in possession of a 'red heckle.'

Flank coy feathers for the Highland corps were abolished in 1830.

The rest is history. More or less. (Just a little late for Red Hackle Day)

Uniforms at Waterloo by Philip.J.Haythornwaite. 1974.
Battalion Coys Red hackle over black cockade with 42 button.
Grenadier Coy Red over white hackle red cockade, brass grenade over sphinx.
Light Coy Green hackle edged red, brass bugle horn over sphinx.
Drummers Red over yellow hackle red cockade edged black, sphinx over 42.
Bn officers black cockade gilt sphinx.
Grenadier officers grenade over sphinx no cockade.

[jf42]

Originally Posted by rmarsden

Uniforms at Waterloo by Philip.J.Haythornwaite. 1974.
Battalion Coys Red hackle over black cockade with 42 button.
Grenadier Coy Red over white hackle red cockade, brass grenade over sphinx.
Light Coy Green hackle edged red, brass bugle horn over sphinx.
Drummers Red over yellow hackle red cockade edged black, sphinx over 42.
Bn officers black cockade gilt sphinx.
Grenadier officers grenade over sphinx no cockade.

Many thanks, Ron. Funnily enough, I was just about to post this quotation from Scottish Military Uniforms by Robin Wilkinson Wilkinson Latham (1975)


'The feather worn in the Hummel bonnet was the same for the rest of the line infantry…[describes 'Regulation feather'].. In the case of the 42nd, however, battalion companies wore an all-red hackle, a distinction awarded to the regiment in 1795 for its conduct at Geldermalsen on 1st January 1795. The light companies of the 42nd had a red top to the green hackle, and grenadier companies had a red top to their white hackle.'

The author isn't infallible, for instance the innaccurate reference to Geldermalsen renders this passage less authoritative than it might be, but both Haythornthwaite and Wilkinson-Latham were apparently drawing on the same source, as was W.B. Wollen much earlier for his painting 'The Black Watch at Bay' in 1889, where he depicts Black Watch grenadiers at Quatre Bras with red over white feathers.

Meanwhile, as posted earlier, according to John Wheatley (enlisted 1817), when the 42nd refitted after the Napoleonic wars, their new bonnets were 'ornamented with a large loose worsted tuft of white for the grenadiers, green for the light company, and red for the others.' but by 1821 this had been replaced by 'a variety of heckles worn in the bonnet, another piece of bad taste — white for the grenadiers, green for the light company, the band white, and the drummers yellow, with each of them two inches of red at the top, and the other eight companies (called battalion companies) red.' He tells us these were all changed to plain red for all in 1825.

Wheatley's ( via Melven/Keltie 1875 ) is still the earliest first-hand reference to red-tipped flank company hackles that I have come across. I still wonder whether the two descriptions from 1974 & 1975, as well as in Wollen's painting were drawing on Wheatley's recollections rather than earlier evidence.

Certainly, the 42nd were depicted by de Loutherbourg as all wearing plain red hackles at Alexandria in 1801. That may have been artistic licence but he was known to take an interest in accuracy.

[Advsmt]

Hi Ron and all, still trawling through family history looking for military men, but they are proving to be fairly hard to pin down. But I have uncovered a couple of men that did belong to the 42nd in the mid 1800s. I have a Sgt.Maj. Andrew Graham from Perthshire who served from 1859-1879. He served in the East Indies, Gold Coast, Malta and Gibraltar. It appears that his only medal was the Ashanti Medal. Also have a private who served from 1839-1856; Corfu, Bermuda, Turkey, Malta, Halifax and Crimea(1 year and 8 months); clasps for Alma and Balaclava. Discharged due to disability from an accident in the trenches at Balaclava. My question is would either of them have worn the Sphinx badge and if so would it be pewter? Also would a Sgt.Maj. have worn an officer type badge? I realise the answers may be based on balance of probability!

Bryan

[Advsmt]

Forgot I also found another private from the 42nd who served in the Crimea, who according to his service record has clasps to Alma, Balaclava and Sebastopol, also awarded DCM at Sebastopol on 4th Dec 1854, apparently that was the first issue date for that medal. Not really a badge question but he is my second 42nd man with a Balaclava clasp, but it is not a battle honour for the 42nd. Did the regiment just play a supporting role? Or is the service record incorrect?

Bryan