Royal New Zealand Airforce - Slouch Hat

[Max on the crest trail]

Originally Posted by SAS1

As demonstrated, these hats were supplied by Australia to their own forces as well as the British, and therefore probably the RNZAF

Why probably ?
Did the New Zealand hat people go on a holiday for the duration of the war ?
No they did not.
Did the RNZAF wear AFI pattern slouch hats ?
No they did not.

Is this combination a fake ?

[Max on the crest trail]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Clive, I would suggest you have a nice RAAF slouch hat.
The RAAF did not wear the brim up, which would make it easier to view the lovely patch.
The RAAF wore their badge at the front, are there any holes to the front?

Its not an RAAF hat according to this , not enough vent holes and wrong sweatband .
http://www.medalsgonemissing.com/Uni...ing-WW2/3.html
AFI maybe , but the puggaree has the wrong number of folds for WW2

Stranger and stranger .

[seebee1]

Well Max on the Crest of a Trail, this subject seems to have your juices flowing. I will rise to the bait. You should have read at the start of my posting that I was seeking confirmation of the Cap Badge and if the Slouch Hat was scarce or not. I was fairly confident it was RNZAF, and appreciated this being confirmed. I am slowly starting to part with a very long-time collection and probably had not looked at this Hat for 20+ years, it was stored in a box. This Hat was never the "holy grail" of my collection, just minor interest and something I thought unusual at the time, just picked-up along the way. I seriously doubt that you or anyone could ever say with total knowledge and authority that this combination was not worn. It is probable that this was not a "typical" arrangement, but never say never. I am also certain this was not put together to deceive anyone, all the components are original, but why I really do not know. To be totally honest, not sure I now really care too much either. I think I will part with it and let someone else have the pleasure of ownership and the joy that further research will bring. Regards, Clive.

[Max on the crest trail]

Originally Posted by seebee1

Well Max on the Crest of a Trail, this subject seems to have your juices flowing. I will rise to the bait. You should have read at the start of my posting that I was seeking confirmation of the Cap Badge and if the Slouch Hat was scarce or not. I was fairly confident it was RNZAF, and appreciated this being confirmed. I am slowly starting to part with a very long-time collection and probably had not looked at this Hat for 20+ years, it was stored in a box. This Hat was never the "holy grail" of my collection, just minor interest and something I thought unusual at the time, just picked-up along the way. I seriously doubt that you or anyone could ever say with total knowledge and authority that this combination was not worn. It is probable that this was not a "typical" arrangement, but never say never. I am also certain this was not put together to deceive anyone, all the components are original, but why I really do not know. To be totally honest, not sure I now really care too much either. I think I will part with it and let someone else have the pleasure of ownership and the joy that further research will bring. Regards, Clive.

I did read your first post . What makes you think that I did not ?
Did you have suspicions about its authenticity that prompted you to ask at this time ?
If you did , judging by the responses on this thread you are not alone


This is a photo from a living history history group website of a R.A.F/ R.A.F Regt Slouch hat .
If it is correct the hat part is ok , and the badge is the odd one out .
http://soldierblue.homestead.com/uniforms.html

[seebee1]

Fairly sure Max on the Crest Trail that neither you or I can add anything further on this subject of much interest. Believe what you will or not, as I will. Regards, Clive.

[magpie]

Picture b appears to show something attached to the hat even though the side is down.
Andy

[Old Smelly]

I cannot confirm the originality of this hat but don't see a problem with it although it might seem an odd combination. British units were supplied with this type of hat made in UK and other commonwealth countries, I have seen many badged to British units that are of Australian manufacture, an RAF one would usually have the coloured ribbon to the side as shown in the pics. Also, many RAF squadrons had mixed crews with members of other commonwealth countries so logically, if a New Zealander were attached to one of these squadrons he would be issued with kit from that units stores. I'm sure I've seen pics of NZ airmen with Bomber Command in battledress wearing British kit with NZ badges.
Lee

[SAS1]

Why probably ?
Did the New Zealand hat people go on a holiday for the duration of the war ?
No they did not.
Did the RNZAF wear AFI pattern slouch hats ?
No they did not.

Why probably? Because the RNZAF used equipment from the Brits and Australians and a large amount from the US too.

The British hat makers did not go on holiday either but the RAF used Australian supplied hats as I have an example.

Did the RNZAF wear AIR pattern slouch hats? Yes they did as I have a photo somewhere of this, in conjunction with USAAF clothing, but not as standard. I'll try and dig it out.

I have seen RAF slouch hats with the brim up, and whilst seemingly not the norm, it did happen. As the Australians supplied Slouch hats to the RAF its possible that they were also Australian made. Most of these I have seen are different. Both mine are (RAAF and RAF but both Oz made), some with a button up brim, most without, some with chinstrap, most without. Supply of uniform and equipment to forces in the Far East was sporadic at times and troops had to take what they could get.

This is a photo from a living history history group website of a R.A.F/ R.A.F Regt Slouch hat .
If it is correct the hat part is ok , and the badge is the odd one out .
http://soldierblue.homestead.com/uniforms.html

The fact this is an item worn by a reinactor and not a period item means it cannot be relied upon as a reference. Matt Wragg, who runs the site in question is not the most accurate when it comes to reinacting. Check his tunic that bears a cloth AG wing and brass Winged Bullet air gunner sleeve badge (the cloth badge actually replacing the brass), or another badged to a former observer who is also parachute trained.

An interesting selection of hats shown in the period photo, demonstrating a number of styles, colours, badges on, badges off, missing puggaree, and brim up.

[Max on the crest trail]

Originally Posted by SAS1

The fact this is an item worn by a reinactor and not a period item means it cannot be relied upon as a reference.

Yes , I know
That is why I started the sentence with the word If . I did not say that it was a true representation I said If it is correct .
How did you miss that ?

I'm looking forward to reading your reliable reference and viewing your reliable photos that prove that NZRAF personal wore RAF bush hats with the RNZAF badge on the raised leaf.

Until reliable proof is found , all such hats must of course be considered to be merely souvenir tat mustn't they.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by seebee1

The Slouch Hat is badged RNZAF and not RAAF. I have checked the front and there are no signs of any holes or evidence of a badge being fastened. Had a quick look on Google and there are several images of Cap badges being worn on the raised side of Australian Slouch hats. This hat is not the New Zealand "Lemon Squeezer" pattern, badges were certainly worn on the front of those. Regards, Clive.

The RNZAF were issued a number of different hats, including some supplied by the American command in the Pacific, but there has never been any evidence brought to light proving that they were issued Australian made slouch hats.

New Zealand stopped wearing badges on the sides of their slouch hats in 1916, since then badges are all worn at the front of the hat, this includes the NZ Mounted Rifles, who continued to wear the slouch hat (NOT THE LEMON SQUEEZER) into WW2.

Originally Posted by Max on the crest trail

Its not an RAAF hat according to this , not enough vent holes and wrong sweatband .
http://www.medalsgonemissing.com/Uni...ing-WW2/3.html
AFI maybe , but the puggaree has the wrong number of folds for WW2

Stranger and stranger .

During the war the RAAF initially used standard AIF hats and puggarees, in 1943 the RAAF were issued the purpose made tropical RAAF felt hat, which had the four vent holes and removable liner.
As the RAAF did not turn the brim up, these tropical RAAF hats are without a clip or eye.

[Max on the crest trail]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

During the war the RAAF initially used standard AIF hats and puggarees, in 1943 the RAAF were issued the purpose made tropical RAAF felt hat, which had the four vent holes and removable liner.
As the RAAF did not turn the brim up, these tropical RAAF hats are without a clip or eye.

Thanks .
Way past that point now thought.
It may well be an RAF bush hat , no matter who the manufacturer was .
Anyway it wasn't me who reckoned it that it was Aussie airforce .
thanks

[SAS1]

Until reliable proof is found , all such hats must of course be considered to be merely souvenir tat mustn't they

Well that probably discounts much of my collection and many others.

The RAAF did not wear the brim up, which would make it easier to view the lovely patch.

See http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafn...es/story13.htm (albeit slightly post war)

There are many examples online of NZ forces wearing slouch hats both before, during and after WW2, just check with Google. I'll try and dig out my images.

[seebee1]

Many thanks Andy for the very interesting images, also Lee and SAS1 for further comments and observations. Certainly this Slouch Hat is an unusual combination and probably the reason for its configuration will never be known. It is not easy to understand why the RAF Flash would be behind the turned-up brim, unless for some unknown reason the Puggaree has been rotated, nor why the RNZAF Badge is fastened to it either. The rather foolish comment that it is "Souvenir Tat" is ridiculous. I will in any event try to establish from the friend I bought it from, if he still recalls, any further knowledge that he may have about it. Regards, Clive.

[Old Smelly]

Britton at War has two different RAF slouch hats in stock at the moment, both have the flash under the flap so I presume that it was worn flap down most of the time in the field?
Australian made: http://www.brittonatwar.co.uk/viewphoto.php?x=2

British made?: http://www.brittonatwar.co.uk/viewphoto.php?x=0

Lee

[seebee1]

Thanks for that Lee, I will attach a couple of images of one of them from the website. Full credit to the excellent BrittonatWar, hopefully they will not object to this. Their example is Australian made, priced at £95, with the Number V 533, whereas mine is Numbered V 350. Although not conclusive It certainly seems that an Australian manufactured Slouch Hat was worn by the RAF, with the Flash attached to the Puggaree, with the Flap being fastened up or down. Obviously there is no explanation for mine having the RNZAF Badge, but we seem to be getting there. Regards, Clive.