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#16
10-03-12, 02:29 AM
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Brent has asked if I have an opinion. Sadly no. I know very little about the badges worn by the British Section. What I do know is that Dave Corbett wrote the seminal book on NZ badges, which enabled the rest of us to flesh out other bits and pieces. Having been a friend of Dave Corbett, and to a lesser extent of Dan Atkinson, I can say that Dave did a lot of research in the archives and at military establishments. Most of his badges came from Dan. Both Dan and Dave helped me get started and were amazing collectors. I do not think Dave Corbett would knowingly put in incorrect information in his book. He was very careful. It is true that there are errors, but not too many. All my books have errors too. Every page on a badge book that has text rather than prices will be full of fact. Sometimes the fact is from a collection of veterans, archives, and regimental records. We are now finding that photographs disproove the lot! Dave would be delighted to know that research is continuing and new facts and badges discovered after all these years. Any self respecting collector author would. The internet and access to forum's and other collectors, plus eBay and Trademe brings out all sorts of intersting new information, and sometimes conumdrums. Its great, the hobby moves forward. As regards this subject, I have emailed Malcolm Thomas to see what he has to say about the matter.
Keep up the good work. Quicksilver 
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#17
10-03-12, 06:50 AM
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Cliff, your input on this subject is very much appreciated, and if a comment from Malcolm can be obtained, that would be fantastic.
As soon as I get a chance I will also contact Geoff to see if he has any evidence of the words “Laurel leaves or Oak leaves” in connection with the British Section NZEF. Interestingly, Dave Corbett in his first badge book published in 1970, wrote the following in the preface on page 9.- “I must record my thanks to those people who have done so much to help me. D. O. Atkinson, JP, FRNS(NZ) who permitted me free access to his magnificent collection of badges and medals and who provided financial assistance for the book.” The interesting part is no mention of Atkinson is made in Daves second book. The question I have is – Does anyone know if Dan Atkinson ever described the British Section NZEF badge? Puk old boy, you have made a big leap of faith taking on what is the established history of the beginning of the New Zealand Onward badge, and as far as I can recall that has never been done before.  Also quoted on page 9 of Dave Corbett’s first book is Exodus 15, v9. “I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.” 
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#18
11-03-12, 01:21 AM
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Early "Expeditionary Force" badge
Hi All,
To add to this discussion, here is a picture from "Auckland Weekly News" Nov. 30, 1916, of 4/1166A 2nd Cpl. Frederick Thomas Cameron, NZ Engineers, died of disease, UK & France, 5/10/1916. It appears that Corporal Cameron is wearing "NZ Expeditionary Force" fernleaf badges. If so, this means that these badges were issued well before the 34th Reinforcements left New Zealand, ie. in February 1918. Cheers, Tinto
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#19
11-03-12, 07:23 AM
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Sorry Tinto my friend, I believe Corporal Cameron is wearing onward collar badges.
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#20
11-03-12, 07:29 AM
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Hi Brent,
Your eyes must be better than mine. I could not find Corporal F T Cameron on the British Section nominal roll. Do you know his history? Cheers, Tinto Links to Rolls: THOSE WHO ENLISTED IN THE NZEF IN LONDON - 1914 Defence Department List: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....ty/UKNZEF.html Archives New Zealand List: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb..../1914nzef.html
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#21
11-03-12, 08:50 AM
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Tinto, Corporal Cameron was a member of the second reinforcements, which as you probably know was mixed with the British Section to form an Engineering company and a service company.
Many of the second reinforcement men were never issued badges, so I would suggest Cameron obtained his onward badges after he arrived in England. The following is a French hand embroidered silk Onward badge postcard, and it is dated on the back 15th December 1915. 
Last edited by atillathenunns; 11-03-12 at 09:03 AM.
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#22
11-03-12, 10:25 AM
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NZEF British Section Badges
Thank you all for the fascinating discussion on the possible badge type the NZEF British Section wore. I have included the scans of my collection of the so-called ‘British Section’ cap and collar badges. The top three badges (left to right) are brass, bronze and bronze. I bought the bronze cap badge on the right from Craig Hooper who sold it to me as a British Section cap badge. Apparently he believes/believed that the British Section wore the oak leaf style Onward badge. As he is one of the leading collectors of NZ military badges, it would be interesting to obtain his thoughts on the matter.
Below are three collar badges, all of which were made by Tip Taft B’ham. The size of the collars is 32 mm high x 25 mm wide, which is similar to the fern leaf Onward collar badges. The collar badge fits very nicely inside a 15th North Auckland Infantry cap badge. I also have a gold sweetheart oak leaf collar size badge, which I am unable to presently locate. This badge was obtained in the UK. I have also included a scan of Sgt Gibbs collection of badges worn by the Samoa and Gallipoli personnel, which is in Waites’s book The NZ’ers at Gallipoli. His collection shows an allegedly ‘British Section’ badge. On zooming in on this badge it has all the appearances of the serrated fern leaf Onward badge and is the same height as the 15th North Auckland cap badge above it. i.e. it is a collar badge. Unfortunately the poor definition of the original picture in the book didn’t allow me to read the writing in the bottom scroll. It would be interesting to see if Gibb’s collection is in a museum so that the badge can be examined. There could be other collections of WW1 NZ badge on display around the country. I know that the Wanganui library has a nice collection, however it has been several years since I last saw it. If, as has been suggested, the British Section badge was a fern leaf type Onward or Expeditionary collar badge, two further areas that need to be explored. Firstly, who wore the oak leaf Onward badge, why was it produced and when was it introduced? Could it have been a Reinforcement badge for those NZ’ers recruited in the UK? Secondly, when did the fern leaf Onward badge first appear? Regards John
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#23
11-03-12, 10:32 AM
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I can easily answer both your questions and also tell you who was most responsible for the design of the Onward badge, but all in good time.
 PS thanks for posting your "so called British Section badges" (Puk and I have a perfect new name for them) and great to see the collar badges and get some sizes. Cheers Brent Last edited by atillathenunns; 11-03-12 at 11:02 AM.
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#24
11-03-12, 07:48 PM
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Hi Brent,
Thanks for the details of Corporal Cameron, and for showing the early representation of the "Onward" badge on the postcard. I have one like it but can't put my hands on it at the moment. John's (Woronora) suggestion to trace the British Section badge in Sergt. Gibb's collection would probably clear up this investigation. The original photograph may be in archives somewhere. All the best, Tinto
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#26
12-03-12, 01:22 AM
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First up I will start with the following which is the reply that I received from Geoff Oldham this morning.
“Hi Brent, The use of Onward badges in World War One has always been a very grey area. There appear to be no written records of just who wore them. All the information on the British Section badges with oakleaves appears to have originated from Dave Corbett. As nobody has challenged this, then it has been accepted as fact. I knew Dave Corbett quite well and he did have a bit of a reputation of making assumptions which he declared as fact. As most of the oakleaf badges seem to turn up in England, they could then just be a variety that was manufactured over there. It is a pity that Dave Corbett is not around today so that he could enlighten us as to just exactly where he got his information from. Geoff.” For those who may be interested Geoff’s Website: http://www.milimem.com/ Geoff’s contact details are. — Military Memorabilia Ltd. P.O.Box 21-022, Henderson, Auckland 0650, New Zealand Shop: Unit 3, 52 Bruce Mclaren Road, Henderson, Auckland 0612. Ph: (09) 837 6150 Mobile: 021 271 5141 Email: medals@ihug.co.nz The second thing that I would like to mention is that although Puk and I have joked about mentioning nooses, we both have the greatest respect for Dave Corbett and all the authors we have mentioned. IMO in another 40 years time, Corbett’s Badge books and Malcolm and Cliff’s patch books will still be the main badge books in use by collectors and enthusiasts. But damit, this is our National Onward badge that we are talking about,  so it is only in typical New Zealand tradition that we should give them a little bit of stick about it.
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#28
12-03-12, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Both Puk and I also agree that we should change the name from the so called “Laurel leaves / Oak leaves” British Section to “New Zealand General Service Badge” The following post card is circa late 1917.  “Laurel leaves / Oak leaves”? 
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#29
12-03-12, 08:47 AM
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Hi All,
Malcolm Thomas has just got back to me by email. He says: Interesting discussion but our book was on the cloth insignia and the entry was mentioning first use of white on black New Zealand cloth shoulder title. I did not have anything on the cap/collar badges apart from what Dave Corbet had. It was a unit briefly raised in the UK and probably even they have no records in the UK with it being a Quasi NZ unit! Cheers Malcolm Looks like all roads point to Rome, but dont be too hasty to write Dave off. I am sure with time the truth will out. Rgds Quicksilver
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#30
12-03-12, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Well that's another nail in the coffin for the oak leaf theory. 
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