Help please from our Indian Experts

[kingsman64]

Dear Forum

Just acquired a superb set to Superintendent J L STRONACH Indian Police and Captain 2/131st United Provinces Battalion.

I have a few questions I hope the Forum can answer



Top Centre hallmarked Silver Collar Badges the centre hallmarked badge has bolt fittings East and west is this a helmet badge or a pouch badge?






I have been informed that Stronach was a Superintendent does this tie up with the rank insignia shown a star and Crown?



There is a looped badge appears cast brass and a slightly smaller badge which appears cast silver would this be a forage/side cap badge?



Finally I believe the 2nd 131st United Provinces Battalion only existed for a short time the cap badge is maker marked J R Gaunt the shoulder titles I have never seen before are they scarce?



Apologies for all the questions don't want to miss describe anything not very aufait with Indian groups this is my first.

Thanks in advance for any help best regards Paul

[davidwyke]

Hi Paul

That's a lovely group of items. You should be able to obtain plenty of info on the man in question. Looks like he was a long serving IP Officer, volunteer with Indian Local Forces and granted a temporary commission WW1. I'm sure you already know the details re BWM & Delhi Durbar Medal.

I'm no Indian expert but can give you a few details. First off, it's not actually Indian Police, it's the Imperial Police, although often referred to as Indian Police.

Virtually all their badges from c. 1905 were the same KC/IP in wreath pattern - cap badge, helmet/pagri badge, side cap badge, collar badges, cross belt badge, pouch badge & buttons. The ceremonial helmet plate was a different pattern.

I think your badge with screw post fittings will be either pouch badge or cross belt badge, possibly the latter which I think was the larger of the two.

Not sure about the KC/IP, you could be right but I thought the side cap badge was the usual pattern, but perhaps someone else knows differently. They did wear "IP" S/T's and rank was indicated by KC & stars, so perhaps they are just epaulette title & rank? I would have thought as regards rank the KC would be uppermost though. I think I have details of the rank structure somewhere, will try and find when I get chance.

Like I said, I'm no expert and other members may correct or add to the above.

David

[davidwyke]

Paul further to the above, I forgot the military side of the items.

The cap badge you have looks like United Provinces Horse, a long-lived volunteer unit, part of AFI. So I'm assuming your man was volunteering with this unit while serving with the IP?

The 131st Infantry (United Provinces Regiment) which consisted of 2 battalions, was very short-lived - 1918-1919. Perhaps he was granted a temporary commission in this unit?

They had their own cap badge, which you do not appear to have. I suppose it's possible that he continued to wear the UPH cap badge which you have? The regt only served in India, which is supported by the fact that he was only awarded the BWM.

Again, other members will no doubt correct or add to the above but hopefully this has been of some help?

David

[Wmr-RHB]

From the information I have, the 131st was raised from police units, which would fit here.
The starting dat I have is 1916, but my source could be in error there.

When you want to see the 131st in it's environmet of the other Indian Army Infantry regiments goto http://hcvv.home.xs4all.nl/milweb/Br...try/index.html and download "From 1903 to the Large Regiments of 1922".

[peter monahan]

David's got all the informatiuon, I think. I'd agree that the larger plate is probably cross belt.

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

From the information I have, the 131st was raised from police units, which would fit here.
The starting dat I have is 1916, but my source could be in error there.

When you want to see the 131st in it's environmet of the other Indian Army Infantry regiments goto http://hcvv.home.xs4all.nl/milweb/Br...try/index.html and download "From 1903 to the Large Regiments of 1922".

Hi Henk

I didn't realise that the 131st was recruited from police personnel but it may well be the case. Interestingly, the initial cadre of the 132nd came from the Punjab Police.

As regards the date of raising, i've checked a couple of sources and both state 1918, as were most of the regiments in that number range although "132" was raised earlier and, I think, disbanded in 1918.

David

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hi Henk

I didn't realise that the 131st was recruited from police personnel but it may well be the case. Interestingly, the initial cadre of the 132nd came from the Punjab Police.

As regards the date of raising, i've checked a couple of sources and both state 1918, as were most of the regiments in that number range although "132" was raised earlier and, I think, disbanded in 1918.

David

When you go to the list I link to above, you will see that the 132nd is also attributed to police there.

I had my doubts about 1916 for the same reason you mention above: the other 130+ ones are of a later date. I will check my source (regiments.org) and see if I made a typo here.

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

I had my doubts about 1916 for the same reason you mention above: the other 130+ ones are of a later date. I will check my source (regiments.org) and see if I made a typo here.

Regiments.org also mentions 1918. I corrected in the PDF linked to above.

BTW the years of disbandment range from 1919-1922. For ease of making the table I all put this under the 1922 reorganisation column. I will see if it is possible to make this more precise without cluttering the whole thing.

[Wmr-RHB]

As an excuse, I would like to mention that another important source for the table is Boris Mollo's The Indian Army. There it says 1916.

So it is not a typo, but copying false(?) information.
Mollo also has all the disbandments in 1919, where Mills (regiments.org) has years ranging from 1918 - 1922.

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

As an excuse, I would like to mention that another important source for the table is Boris Mollo's The Indian Army. There it says 1916.

So it is not a typo, but copying false(?) information.
Mollo also has all the disbandments in 1919, where Mills (regiments.org) has years ranging from 1918 - 1922.

I changed the document. Not only the correct disbanding years for the war raised regiments, but a few others were already disbanded in 1921 instead of 1922.

[davidwyke]

I have Mollo's book but I must admit that I didn't check that. Poulsom gives 1918.

The problem is that it's difficult to say whether the info has been extracted from a primary source or just copied from someone else.

Anyway, 1918 definitely makes more sense to me!

David

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Anyway, 1918 definitely makes more sense to me!

David

I agree.

[Khyber]

That is a lovely set of badges to the Indian Police.

And it is the Indian Police (IP) not Imperial though I have read it in some books as Indian (Imperial) Police. There is still and Indian Police Association in the UK made of descendants of IP officers.

As a collector of badges to the IP I must say that's a lovely set you have got. The Big one in the centre is a pouch badge and the others are cap and collar badges. The brass cast one is new to me. I have not seen one and don't have any in my collection, but going by the size it could a be a pouch badge.
The shoulder titles also come in different varieties, with the main difference being where the dot after I and P is placed. have seen 2/3 different types but maybe it just has to do with where it was manufactured.

There is also a lovely triangular IP badge for the belt end. Did you not get it as part of the set?

I have also seen a horse bit badge to the IP made of white metal, but the dealer is asking an outrageously high price saying it is made of silver, so don't have it in my collection yet.

Dont know much about UP Horse, but some police officers did serve with Auxillary Forces and Volunteer units and some took up service with the police forces of the Princely states.

But its really a lovely set of badges and medals. Congrats on the purchase!

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

As regards the title, I just checked and the Police Act (india) 1861 created the IMPERIAL Police Service as part of the wider Indian Police Service. The "Imperial" title was used on all official documentation until around 1917 from when "Indian" started to appear and I admit that from this point the "Indian Police" title was more commonly used. However, I would contend that "Imperial Police" was the official title right up to the 1948 reorganisation.

Incidentally, the Indian Police Association (UK) started life in India as something similar to the Police Federation here and it's original title was the Indian Imperial Police Association.

The correct title has been the subject of numerous discussions over the years and we will probably have to agree to disagree but at least we can agree that there is an impressive array of badges there.

As regards rank structure, the ranks were

Director Of The Intelligence Bureau (I believe this was a later addition to the following four)
Inspector General
Deputy Inspector General
District Superintendent
Assistant Superintendent

These were the Imperial Police ranks. Ranks from Deputy Superintendent down belonged to the local Indian Police Service forces.

Brass IP insignia turns up occasionally, such items are far scarcer than the usual WM/silver pieces. They are believed to have been worn by IP Officers attached to local Armed Police units.

Civilian IP staff also wore gilt or brass insignia but these have the "PD" cypher (= Police Department, which the civilians were known as)

David

[Khyber]

Hi David,
I think you have a point about the Imperial Police, but at some point I think as a service they came to be called Indian Police. Also, books by ex-IP officers always refer to it as Indian Police. We'll agree to disagree on this..

Incidentally, one of the last officers of the IP who joined the service in 1943 passed away a couple of months ago in Bangalore at 93. I've been trying to get in touch with the family thought a journalist friend in case they have photos etc from that period..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/49829119.cms

Do you have the PD cypher badge that was worn by civilian police staff, and if so can you post a photo. Would love to see it..

And while we are on Indian Police can you tell me what the badge 'PC' within laurel leaves stand for ..Is that Punjab Constabulary, as some think?..am not sure that is correct....or did Indian police constables wear a PC badge..never seen one in a photo.

I'm mainly a collector of medals to Indian Cavy, but ventured into badges recently and focus on Indian Police badges..a hugely fascinating/confusing and unexplored field..