Pattern ?

[pinfrin]

Not understood please – same style but a 100 year gap ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?_od...=agra&_sacat=0
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/India-3rd-...MAAOSw7FRWWi82

[peter monahan]

I don't understand your question. The two items appear to be buttons from Victorian era - 1860s to 1890s - volunteer units from India, made up of Europeans reident in India and forming a militia/territorial type force. I'm not sure what you mean by '100 year gap', as I can't see a date on either button.

[pinfrin]

Originally Posted by peter monahan

I don't understand your question. The two items appear to be buttons from Victorian era - 1860s to 1890s - volunteer units from India, made up of Europeans reident in India and forming a militia/territorial type force. I'm not sure what you mean by '100 year gap', as I can't see a date on either button.

AGRA ver01:
There were 2 Agra units in the Volunteers:
(i)The Agra Vol Rifle Corps (raised 13 Jan 1879)
(ii) No. 17 [Agra] Field Battery (formed 1st Oct 1920 )
AGRA ver02:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_G...oyal_Artillery
86th AGRA (Army Group Royal Artillery) WW2 formation sign
http://www.deadspartan.co.uk/viewpho...h=55534&phqu=2
SEIKH (Sikh ?) ver01:
The '3 Seikh Artillery' perhaps from Ranjit's (d 1839) Army.
The HEIC did present him some guns (later turned around in the
Anglo Sikh wars 1845 -1849)
The entire Bengal Native Arty rebelled. (Gaylor's book has a
note about the opinion that there should be no more native Artillery 1859
Class Arty:
There do not seem to have been any S(e)ikh RIA
(although there was a 34 Mahratta, a 35 Lingayat & a 37 Coorg A/TK RIA)
There were 3 Piffer Btys, however.

The Agra & Seikh Buttons both made in Birmingham same pattern.
Can't place them (?) Could be fakes ?

[fairlie63]

Might the 3 Sikh be for the unit which later became 2 Mountain Battery? Both Kempton and Frederick refer to it.

[Cribyn]

Hello

As far as I can tell both buttons are genuine.

Both being made by 'Smith Kemp & Wright' would suggest around the 1840s/1850s. Sometime prior to that they were just 'Smith & Kemp', then Wright joined, became a partner and then 'Kemp' left the business and the firm carried on as the better known 'Smith & Wright'.

Whilst I am no expert in the lineage of Indian Army units (particularly the non-regular army Princely States, Auxiliaries and Volunteers!) I can see nothing wrong with these buttons. They certainly do not have the appearance of fakes.

Regards
Roger

Regards
Roger

[pinfrin]

Originally Posted by fairlie63

Might the 3 Sikh be for the unit which later became 2 Mountain Battery? Both Kempton and Frederick refer to it.

Thank you.
I don't have Chris Kempton's Register of Titles 1666-1947.
(Trying to get this out of print book, none found.)

Request info which 3 Sikh please - not 3 Sikh Inf ( Piffers )
or 3rd Sikh Pioneers ( 1922 ) nor 3/11th.

[Cribyn]

Hello

Just as a follow-up to my previous post, the 'Agra Artillery' button is illustrated in Volume V of Lt Col Poulsom's epic work on 'Buttons Of The Indian Army'. Date is given as pre 1861.

Regards
Roger

[pinfrin]

Peters' views: The Volunteers connect seems OK.
Chris Kempton's Volunteer Forces book under the head 1857-1859
on page 1 mentions The Agra Militia [Volunteers] with 3 companies
of volunteers raised (Arty, Infantry, Rifles) with the garrison
confined to Agra Fort.
Also a mention of De Kantzow's Militia Cavalry Agra 1857 which
included officers from mutinied regts, civil servants, clerks,
pensioners, musicians and horse riders from a French wandering circus.

Landour Rangers
Endici has just sold a Landour Rangers (QVC button) - more
early undocumented volunteers lurk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landour

Instant Buttons
How did they get the buttons made so quickly from Birmingham
without a net connection ? No 3d printing either.

[davidwyke]

Hi Pinfrin

As regards the Sikh Artillery button, I haven't checked Lt Col Poulsom's books but I'm sure Roger would have spotted it if it was included.

I'm speaking from memory here so apologies if I'm wrong but judging by the backmark I think the button relates to the following: in 1846 at the conclusion of the Sutlej Campaign (1st Sikh War) a Frontier Brigade was formed as part of the HEIC forces. It consisted of 4 regiments of Sikh Infantry and 5 (?) Batteries of Sikh Artillery. I can't remember if it included any Cavalry units.

In 1857 they became the Infantry and Artillery elements of the Punjab Irregular Force.

I think the button probably dates from the above period and is more or less contemporary with the Agra button. If it's a tunic button (rather than coatee) then it's from the end of the above period c.1855-1857 or maybe a few years beyond that.

David

[pinfrin]

Hi David,
Thank you - so the Seikh Button was probably for one of
the Arty elements in below.

1851: Punjab Irregular Force
5 Regiments of Cavalry
The Corps of Guides (comprising both Infantry & Cavalry)
Four Mountain Batteries
One Garrison Battery of heavier pieces
Four Regiments of Sikh Infantry
Six Regiments of Punjab Infantry
One Regiment of Gurkha Infantry
( Chapter 'Early days- The Punjab Irregular Force', Book 'The Frontier Force Regiment' by Brig WEH Condon, pub 1962)

The Agra Artillery(?) The Landour Rangers ( seem to be early Volunteers )

[davidwyke]

Hi Pinfrin

Yes, that's my opinion, for what it's worth!

Probably the 3rd of the four Mountain Batteries.

Incidentally, just to support my theory, the buttons worn by the four Sikh Infantry Regiments were slightly similar to the Artillery button on e-bay. They had a lion in the centre (can't remember if it's the HEIC lion or not) and the title "Seikh Infantry". Not sure if the buttons were numbered for each regiment though, I think they were worn from c. mid 1850's until mid 1870's.

David

[pinfrin]

the eBay seikh button -> £ 100 ?
more buttons should turn up. at least who wore them interesting.

irregulars, volunteers perhaps same manufacturer ?

attd an 1857 army list page (slim* volume) found. *1858 ed >>

[davidwyke]

The amounts that many HEIC & Indian Army buttons are selling for recently are amazing.

Strange to think that the Sikh gunner who wore the button in question, assuming it was actually ever worn, probably never gave it a second thought. He couldn't have imagined that 150 years down the line a single button from his tunic would sell for more money than he may have seen in his entire life.

David

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

The amounts that many HEIC & Indian Army buttons are selling for recently are amazing.

Strange to think that the Sikh gunner who wore the button in question, assuming it was actually ever worn, probably never gave it a second thought. He couldn't have imagined that 150 years down the line a single button from his tunic would sell for more money than he may have seen in his entire life.

David

Good morning David,

I could not agree more with your comment re prices and it's not just HEIC and Indian Army either! A Monmouthshire Rifle Volunteers sold for £170 on ebay recently! I am sure there are others getting close to this.

The humble button is getting to be rather less humble methinks. It always seemed to me that military buttons were the poor relation of the militaria world, neglected and uncared for but not any more!

It's getting to the point where I can't afford to collect the ones I don't have. Good job I started collecting in 1970 when very nice ones could be picked up for just a few pence each! Oh, those were the days!

Roger

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Good morning David,

I could not agree more with your comment re prices and it's not just HEIC and Indian Army either! A Monmouthshire Rifle Volunteers sold for £170 on ebay recently! I am sure there are others getting close to this.

The humble button is getting to be rather less humble methinks. It always seemed to me that military buttons were the poor relation of the militaria world, neglected and uncared for but not any more!

It's getting to the point where I can't afford to collect the ones I don't have. Good job I started collecting in 1970 when very nice ones could be picked up for just a few pence each! Oh, those were the days!

Roger

Hi Roger

Those were the days but sadly they are gone and unlikely ever to return.

Buttons certainly were a cheaper and generally more reliable (re fakes, etc) alternative to cap badges for example. Some dealers regarded them as a bit of a "joke" really, a few still do. Which is good because it means it's still possible to pick up scarce buttons for next to nothing. Doesn't happen very often now though, not to me anyway.

It's not all bad news, just think how much some of the buttons you paid pence for in the past are worth now. Unfortunately, that really isn't of much significance unless you decide to sell them!


David